Hey, ahm flattered! It was perty catchy, tho, eh?
Do me a flavor: Please give the attribution to my regular handle, which is
Proctologically Violatedฎฉ, on alt.machines.cnc, where I am a semi-regular.
Since I've been darting about elsewhere on usenet, I figgered I'd tame it up
a little -- some people just can't quite muster up the wherewithall to
respond to someone who calls themself Mr. PV'd.
When asked if I'm gay, I respond, Dude..... it says "Violated", not
Stylistically, I would capitalize Junta, Dictatorship, and Media.
Well, as you will.
fyi, I will be running for office under the Indpendent Party of the
Proctologically Violated (M)asses, so I could use a, uh, plug in yer sig.
As for experience, I am a founding member of ICNAL, the International
Consortium for the Neutering of All Lawyers, and President of the American
chapter, ANAL, Americans for the Neutering of All Lawyers.
I hope I have your support.
On 10/27/2009 3:28 PM Existential Angst spake thus:
It's called standard English.
Sorry, no can do. Unlike most of the great ignorant Unwashed
Masses(R)(TM), I don't reflexively hate lawyers.
To paraphrase what they useta say when I was a younger pup: In legal
trouble? Call a hippie.
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
Well, I don't hate them either. After all, I don't advocate killing them
all, just neutering them.
Whether they are issued anaesthesia would be an individual state's decision.
In fact, my various organizations are looking for a good lawyer -- neutered
Hate toward lawyers is not reflexive, btw. It's generally a steady measured
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:38:12 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
Yes, such spur connections seem reasonably common for things like attics,
garages, and where rooms are later added on to buildings - and in that
respect they're not really much different to US wiring layouts, I suppose
(apart from they feed back to the ring, not always back to the service
As Bud says, you have multiple loads on the ring, and the ring's quite
large, so from any given outlet the run length of the two routes back to
the consumer unit (service panel) is never quite equal.
Certainly can be. Hazards with any system, I suppose.
Aside: I can never quite decide whether I prefer UK-style outlets/plugs or
US ones. Remember that all plugs for UK appliances have their own fuse,
rather than relying on tripping a breaker back in the service panel, and
all outlets there have a live/neutral/earth connection - as a result the
plugs are quite large (although not as chunky as US 240V plugs,
thankfully), but the built-in fuse is nice to have.
OTOH I like how compact US plugs are - particularly on things like wall
warts where the pins fold away for storage.
OTOH (again) US plugs can be knocked such that they expose the pins, which
seems like a major safety hazard...
Yeah, so I've heard. I really like big old DC stuff - shame just about all
of it's gone to the junkyard these days. It appeals to the mad scientist
in me ;-)
Yeah, I think it's all technically 230V these days actually - the UK
lowered theirs slightly (as did others) whilst some other countries on
220V upped theirs a little. It's just too ingrained in my mind such that
I'll always call the UK system 240V...
I'm curious how much 120V is used outside of the US, actually - I'm not
sure what other places in the world are using.
:-) I think the US system just evolved slowly over time, and with such a
high population it's hard to put the brakes on and simply change over to
something else; the European picture was a bit different because it was
all such a mess after WWII that there was a far more opportunity to start
over with different systems and standards. Not that they always got it
right, of course!
(I still find black wires as being 'hot' kind of weird in the US -
after doing a lot of electronics work over the years it was
surprising to me when I found that the wire that makes you go ouch is
the black one, not the white one ;-)
No comment, really. Never been one to buy vitamins - although I've heard
that medicine's generally a lot cheaper over there (or free, given the
NHS) than it is in the US.
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:32:44 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
Yep, 'live' gives 240V (well, technically 230V) with respect to the
neutral, rather than there being two 'hots' of 120V like the US system.
Power over there is at 50Hz too rather than 60, which can have an impact
on things which derive timing from the power input (or on things with
inductive components - if I remember right the problem's in bringing
things designed for a 60Hz environment into a 50Hz one as there can be
A question is whether the spur is ring-wire-size or 'full-wire-size'.
The Wiki article sounds like it is ring-wire-size with limitation on the
number of outlets or possible fuses.
I assume a major purpose of the fuse is that you are connecting a cord
with rather limited current rating to a 30/32A ring circuit.
All 3-phase at utility end, from what I have read, with hot and neutral
supplied. You may get 2 of the phases. And in some countries I have read
you get all 3 phases.
The UK, in particular, does seem to be a much more 'engineered' system.
Not sure how much the 'cowboy' mentality in the US would allow that.
Receptacle configurations have changed even since WWII if I read the
Wiki article right.
Surprising how much even the names of parts are different from this side
the pond (like "consumer unit" in the Wiki article).
Yeah, normally ring-wire-size from installations I've seen, so some care
has to be taken when adding new services (although I suppose that's true
of any type of electrical system)
Well, not just the cord, but the device itself too; it's nice if the
device doesn't have to wait for the main ring fuse to blow (or breaker to
trip) if there's a fault. Fuses in plugs were commonly 3A, 5A or 13A -
although ISTR seeing 2A before, and in reality most things end up using
13A with some smaller stuff (lamps etc.) using 3A.
Yes, some larger houses can end up with a couple of phases (in the UK).
Typically they're just a single phase, though. Not sure what the rest of
Yeah, there have been some changes to outlet designs, plugs and light
fittings - plus of course at some point fuse boxes started disappearing
and were replaced by breakers.
Uh huh. Cord vs. cable, outlet vs. socket etc... although having done the
move from one country to another there's a lot of commonality, too. Enough
that the US system more or less makes sense to me now ;-)
Oh, I found a world map of the various voltages/frequencies in use which
may be of interest:
Excellent point! I see that!! That is really really neat! Iow, the
geometry of the installation is sort of part of the schematic!!
Well, on the various ng concerned with machines all over the country, over
about 10 yrs I think I'm the ONLY one to reference 208 V, via NYC. Maybe
208 dominates in big industrial cities?
Even Long Island (NY) which perhaps has one of the highest concentration of
"small" machine shops (< 10,000 sq ft) in the country, uses 240 V.
But here's my Q:
For a given voltage, what difference would the end user see in terms of a
delta or wye connection?
And why is 208 wye, and 240 V delta?
And, is each leg of the 240 V delta 3 ph separated by equal 120 deg shifts,
like the 208?
I argue that it is not, that two of the phases *must* be 180 deg out of
phase, as that's the only way you could get 240 from two 120 legs. The 3rd
phase must be 90 deg to these two.
Visavis 208/120 V systems, which is exactly consistent with 120 phase angle.
I argue this, but others hotly disagree, but without really being able to
tell me wye. :)
If the above is correct, I surmise the reason is that the 208 3 ph is
supplied right from the generator, whilst 240 3 ph comes off of pole
120/208V dominates in general. Machine shops may want 240V because
machines may be commonly made for 240V. That may be historical - it may
be how early machines were made and was continued for compatibility with
older equipment. I have seen some machine tools in use that probably
208V has 3 - 120V transformers. One endpoint of each transformer is
connected together to form a "neutral". You have 120V from each of the
phase conductors to the neutral. That is a major advantage when you are
supplying 120V loads (compare to 240V delta). The voltage between phase
conductors is 208V. A 3-phase motor would be 208V. A diagram of the
transformer connections looks like a Y-wye (or star).
The major power distribution in a large building is likely 277/480V wye.
The 3 transformers are 277V with one end connected to a common neutral.
The voltage between phase conductors is 480V. Higher voltage means less
copper is used in wiring. A lot fluorescent (and non-incandescent)
lightning is 277V .For motors 480V 3-phase is nice. Stepdown
transformers to 120/208V wye are installed in electrical rooms where
necessary. [You could also get 240V delta.]
A 240V delta system starts out with a 120/240 transformer like is used
for a residential service. The center tap is the neutral, just like with
a residential service. For the 3-phase, 2 transformers are added, one
end of each connected to the ends of the original transformer and the
other end connected together to be the 3 phase "high leg". A diagram of
the transformer connections looks like a triangle or delta. The voltage
from the high leg to neutral is 208V. There may only be 2 transformers
(open delta). I suspect this system came from original 120/240V single
phase systems where some 3-phase load had to be added. You can add a
transformer, which can be much smaller than the original one (depending
on the 3 phase load). And there used to be a "delta breaker" (may still
exist) which I believe allowed 3 phase to be kludged into original
single phase services. I suspect this is how 3 phase came to many
machine shops. You have 120V from only 2 phases to the neutral and it is
much harder to "balance" the current in the 3 legs. If not balanced, the
voltages between phases may be different which increases motor heating.
If there are 3 transformers imbalance also causes "circulating" currents.
Not how delta works.
There did used to be 2-phase power (90 degrees). Niagra, which was
probably the first large hydro generation, was originally 2-phase.
You could look at machine shops and see if there are only 2 transformers
(open delta) and one is much smaller (most of the load is single phase).
For delta, one of the transformers has a 3rd connection (neutral).
This is a picture of one of those transformer arrays. The incoming
phases to the customer is black,red.blue
This is a picture of that transformer array, the 120/240 phases are
typically black & red and the high leg is required to be orange by
There is another way you can see delta in a place that doesn't need
any 120v load. They make a standard delta with either 2 or 3
transformers and ground one phase leg AKA "corner grounded delta".
That will look a lot like single phase to someone who is not aware
since there will just be 2 ungrounded conductors and the 3d phase will
be white. The equipment will look like single phase with 2 pole
That is one place where you will need those 2 pole "delta" rated
You can also have ungrounded delta but that will be in a special place
like a glass factory where the first fault to ground won't bring down
the power. There are special monitoring requirements for that.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Where do you get the wire with the neon insulation? (nice touch)
Another nice pic. 2 transformers means open delta. Notice the right
transformer has 3 connections - the center one is the neutral. Left
transformer only has 2 connections.
I have never seen an installation with a delta breaker. Catalog pictures
what I remember is a delta breaker has 2 bus stabs and a wire. The wire
goes to the neutral bar?
Is this the only way delta breakers are used?
HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.