15 or 20 Amp

Check your local building code. Up here in Ontario, you _must_ use 20A rated outlets if you have a 20A breaker.

Hmmm... Hold on... I've said that a few times but now that I think about it, the part of the code I'm thinking was dealing with a kitchen countertop where you ether had to have a split-circuit recepticle or a single 20A circuit (complete with 20A outlet). It's possible that it's not required to have a 20A outlet on a 20A circuit in other situations. But why take the chance? It doesn't make good sense to use a 15A rated part in one place when the your only piece of protection (the breaker) is rated at

20A. Plus, if you ever had a 20A piece of equipment, at least you'd have a recepticle that would take it.

Brian ( snipped-for-privacy@precidia.com )

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Reply to
Brian White
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Unless you are specifically know that specific receptacle is going to need to be rated 20 amps, you use a 15 amp receptacle.

Just incase you want to look it up:

formatting link
last question, references the table on page 70-56

hth,

Reply to
newsgroups01REMOVEME

Unless you are specifically know that specific receptacle is going to need to be rated 20 amps, you use a 15 amp receptacle.

Just incase you want to look it up:

formatting link
last question, references the table on page 70-56

hth,

Reply to
newsgroups01REMOVEME

Maybe so in Canada, but in the USA we are certainly allowed to install 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits. In fact, you can install as many on a circuit as you wish. Homebuilders do it all the time. In fact, we get our electrical jollies doing it.

Again, maybe in Canada, not in USA. There are 20 amp wiring requirements for kitchens, but no requirement for a 20 amp outlet. Last time I checked, my toaster, blender, coffe maker, electric skillet, and anything else I am likely to plug in my kitchen doesn't have the kind of plug that requires a

20 amp outlet.

It's possible that it's not required

In mainstream house wiring it's really not required anywhere, with the possible exception for a dedicated circuit for something like an air compressor or other high draw device. Again, that's NEC. Things up there may be different.

But why take the chance?

What chance? There is absolutely NO DANGER IN PUTTING 15 AMP OUTLETS ON 20 AMP WIRING. NONE, NADA, ZILCH. Keep in mind that a 15 amp outlet won't allow anything to be plugged into it that will draw over 15 amps. For that very reason, it is not allowed to put a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit. This is where you could potentially plug something in that would over draw the wiring.

It doesn't make good sense to use a 15A rated part in one place when the your only piece of protection (the breaker) is rated at 20A.

You clearly don't understand the concept. Let me repeat myself. A 15 amp outlet will not allow anything to be plugged into it that would allow the wiring, outlet, and breaker. Power is drawn from the load, not pushed from the supply. A 15 amp outlet is fine on a 20 amp circuit. The outlet wont melt, explode, or anything, because nothing that will draw too much current will be plugged into it. Get it yet?

Plus, if you ever had a 20A piece of equipment, at least you'd have a recepticle that would take it.

Please take inventory of everything you own, and list what you have that has the special plug configuration that requires a 20 amp outlet. I'm not even sure what type of appliance, tool, or widget this would be.

By the way, your other post was really amusing. Where did you get that 240 amp kitchen code requirement?

I don't know about the Canadian electrical code, but here in the USA, it's And you'd be taking ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCES by doing this. All you'd be doing is what home builders do all over the place. I'm not even sure what kind of appliance even has the plug configuration that requires a 20 amp outlet. What makes no sense is spending a pile of money on 20 amp outlets when you don't need them.

Reply to
DaveG

This "15 amp receptacle" thing comes up about once a week around here. For the record. all receptacles listed in the US are 20a rated for feed through. It is only the individual socket that is 15a rated on a NEMA 5-15 and that corresponds to the 15a plug that will fit in it. As long as you have more than one outlet you can put a 15a on a 20a circuit. A standard duplex receptacle is TWO outlets.

The split wired kitchen receptacle thing is in Canada, not the US. I believe they also have the rule about 15a receptacles NOT being on 20a circuits. Maybe we should always preface our comments with NEC or CEC.

Reply to
Greg

Allrighty then, you just go ahead and use that little piece of #14 on a 20a circuit then! It'll be the least of your problems!

=:-)

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com

Reply to
HaHaHa

This is Turtle.

Hap Hazard , You do read well do you. You did not read the wire size verses the breaker sixe write up did you ? Go two post back up and read it again. You need to get out more often and see them Electric wires more. Also take some reading lessons for that would not hurt at all.

TURTLE

Reply to
TURTLE

Whoee! Guess I don't really have to say anything after looking at the comments that follow in this thread. Bill, you are a study!

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

I have no idea what the difference in cost would be if an electrician did the work, but the cost difference between 14 and 12 gauge wire is really minimal. I would never wire anything with less than 12 gauge wire even if using a 15 A breaker. In fact, I would use 10 gauge for any long runs or if I anticipated a large amperage motor being used; the only problem is that 10 gauge tends to be a bitch to work with. Newer vacuums draw at least 12 amps and can lower the voltage sufficiently to dim lights. Compounding the voltage drop problem is they have really long cords of fairly low gauge and that can't be good for the motor. As a factual point, our Hoover is rated at 12 A but the appliance cord is stamped 17/2. Hoover must know something different, because the appliance cord should be a minimum of 14 gauge for a 3 percent voltage drop at the motor.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

It would have been better if you had shown that restraint before posting your badly flawed "advice"

BB

Reply to
BinaryBillTheSailor

IMHO:

Some very good points about preventing voltage drop, but having the attitude of always going with a higher gauge wire is very costly and not necessary. 14 awg wire is 'rated' for 20 amps(even higher depending on what temp you calc for, I know I must use the 60C per NEC), but being a small guage wire it falles under NEC 240.4(d) saying I can only use 14 awg for a 15A circuit( 25% cut).

So, the breaker is the most limiting device in the circuit and now it makes no sense to just spend money on the cable by going to a higher size. Infact it's already built into the code, instead of using 14awg for a 20a branch, you are forced to use 12awg, so why further restrict your self to using 12 awg for a 15a if nothing else tells you to do so?

What I woudl do if I had to money to burn, run an isolated ground, and install tvss's to protect the computer equipment.

later,

tom @ URLBee.com

Reply to
newsgroups01REMOVEME

Vacuum cleaner cord has it's own listing category (type SVxx) and the motor/cord assembly is an engineered system. The voltage drop is taken into account when they design a vacuum. In fact you would violate the listing if you did put a 14 ga cord on one. It really has nothing to do with what we are talking about here

Reply to
Greg

If they're rated for 20A feed-through, then that's the rating that matters since a single appliance cannot draw more than 15A without having a different plug configuration.

It's the code in Ontario; I can't say for sure what it is in the rest of Canada, but it's probably the same since I believe Ontario pretty much copies that federal recommendations. It's always a good idea to check your local building codes, though, because there are differences.

Brian ( snipped-for-privacy@precidia.com )

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Reply to
Brian White

Hmmm... 17GA wire has a resistance of about 5ohms/1000ft(*). Assuming a

10ft vaccum cord, you have have about 0.1ohm of total resistance.

Thus, you would dissipate about 12A*12A*0.1ohm = 14.4Watts of heat during operation (over the length of the cord) and have a voltage drop at the motor of 12A*0.1ohm = 1.2V. 14GA wire has about 1/2 the resistance and thus would dissipate 1/2 the amount of heat and 1/2 the voltage drop.

Would a 0.6V change in voltage at the motor really violate the listing?

(*) I'm assuming that the rating of 5ohm/1000ft is for single conductor and not the "round trip" (i.e. double) distance. If I'm wrong, cut the calculated numbers in half.

Brian ( snipped-for-privacy@precidia.com )

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Reply to
Brian White

As somebody pointed out, even "15A" recepticles are rated for 20A feed- through. That's what is important. They're not not configured/rated for 20A appliances.

I know. I didn't understand why a 20A outlet was necessary either, but it's "code" and if I wanted to pass my inspection...

And those devices should have 20A plugs if they're going to draw a 20A surge.

Yes, there IS A DANGER _if_ at outlet were only rated for 15A. However, since a 15A outlet is still rated to handle 20A of current (though not to a single device), then you're still okay.

We're in violent agreement here.

Note that what you say here is technically wrong. NO simple outlet protects against things being plugged in to it. I could easily add a power bar or string Christmas lights together and try to draw more than 15A from a single socket. It may make things more difficult (for example not allowing a 20A plug to fit) but _all_ protection comes from the CB in the panel, not the outlet (at least, not a standard simple one).

But, since a 15A outlet is actually rated for 20A current it's fine to use on a 20A circuit. I did not know this when I made my original post.

I do. Do you?

Mostly shop equipment; a lathe for example might require 20A.

- every appliance has to have it's own 15A circuit: dishwasher, garbage disposal, fridge, microwave 60A - countertop: split circuit or 20A, every 6 feet, adjacent must be on different circuits, next to sink must be GFI: 1 x 15A@240V-split, 2 x 20A (GFI outlets) 70A @ 120V - stove/oven: 40A (required present even if using gas) oven doesn't draw that much, cooktop is gas 40A @ 240V - lights: must be on separate circuit one circuit for all lights 15A - smoke / explosive gas detector separate circuit if running 3-wire "ring all" config 15A ============ 240A @ 120V

The panel in the basement is 100A @ 240V. You can see the history of the renovation here:

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It _is_ actually finished now... I just haven't finished the write-up.

Brian ( snipped-for-privacy@precidia.com )

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Reply to
Brian White

Any modification whatsoever invalidates the listing. It's no longer "as tested". Also consider that all wire is not made of the same material, and two wires of same gauge may have quite different specs as far as resistance. The type of configuration, flexibility, flex fatigue, and the cover also make a difference.

BB

Reply to
BinaryBillTheSailor

how does the cover make a differance?

Reply to
Playintennis5274

Differences in heat dissapation.

BB

Reply to
BinaryBillTheSailor

Geez Turtle, dontcha know facitious when you read it? Thinkin' ya might not I even added a little =:-) to help clue you in.

Lighten up 'tis the season for whatever your season is for.

Besides... the discussion a few posts up doesn't negate the NEC.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com

Reply to
HaHaHa

OH? You put fifty feet of #17 wire on a 12 A motor and then plug it into a house wire that is #14 and 110 feet from the panel. Ok, right, who cares. Oh, you might want to switch that vacuum for a 12 a table saw.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

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