The message from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:
Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.They can also re-read the thread and count the number of times you falsely imputed claims to me, which I did not make, and descended to your usual sexual vulgarities to discredit my simple statement of facts. Such tactics only discredit yourself
1) You can *talk* to children and explain the problem to them. You cannot talk to a dog, and you cannot talk to most dog owners who would let their dog piss on your lawn. If they knew it was wrong, they'd put a stop to it without being asked.
2) In some locales, including mine, it is legal to terminate a dog that's damaging a food-producing garden.
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Gosh. Who to believe? The rhody expert and the gardener who does her research, or the woman who insists they wrong about everything because she believes that anything within a half-hour drive of the sea is by the sea?
Yes, anyone who has followed this thread does know who has discredited themselves.
You are very vague about what you call near the sea, and very inaccurate in your estimates. To be more precise:
RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very close. Glendoick Gardens, 1.8 miles from the firth of Tay, even further. Branklyn Garden, 3 miles from the firth of Tay, much further. Invereww Gardens, 100 meters from Loch Ewe, close. Arduaine Gardens, borders the Sound of Jura at one point, but no rhodies there, very close. Younger Botanic Garden (Benmore), 2 miles from Holy Loch, not the least bit close. Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not very close. Brodick Castle & Gardens runs down to about 100 meters from the firth of Clyde, quite close.
None are at sea level or they would disappear at the highest tides. Inverewe Gardens is the most exposed to the sea. Arduaine Gardens in on a 239 ft. high slope of An Cnap overlooking the Sound of Jura seimi-sheltered to the west by the 300 ft. tall Luing and Garvellachs. The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters. Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view point. Brodick Castle & Gardens is situated on a sheltered plateau above the firth of Clyde, but the gardens extend down near the highway along the shore.
And Arduaine Gardens is not very near any place, but it is 16 mi. west of Inveraray (43 mi. by road) & 20 mi. south of Oban, so Inveraray is closest to Inveraray (not Inverary) if you look at a map.
How can areas with 60 to 90 inches of annual rainfall be salt laden?!?!?!
Inverewe Gardens, main rainfall 64 in. Arduaine Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in. Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore, mean rainfall 90 in. Crarae Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in. Brodick Castle & Gardens, mean rainfall 80 in.
Every one of these gardens has some protection from the prevailing westerly winds:
The RBGE is 1.5 miles inland and 134 m. high and nestled amongst large trees. Glendoick Gardens is 1.8 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees. Branklyn Garden is 3 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees. Inverewe Gardens (NT) the rhododendrons and azaleas are grown amongst large trees in areas naturally sheltered behind "wind- and salt-barriers" of Griselinia littoralis and other plants about 100 m from the Southern tip of Loch Ewe where it is nestled. Arduaine Gardens is nestled amongst large trees near the Sound of Jura but is elevated and slightly shelterd from the westerly winds by the 300 ft tall Luing and Garvellachs. Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore is 2 miles from the sea and nestled amongst large trees. It is elevated and has much protection to the west. Crarae Gardens is protected from the westerly winds on the east side of a hillside nestled amongst large trees and is situated about 1000 feet from Loch Fyne. Brodick Castle & Gardens is protected from the westerly winds by the
The message from Stephen Henning contains these words:
To be more precise:
Here's an example of your "precision":
You don't seem to know which, do you? Here's a picture; the garden is below the castle and adjoins the sea
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The "highway", is a narrow road, immediately adjoining the sea. It's just wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other.The oldest and most famous rhododendron area called the Planthunter's Walk, is at the bottom of the garden alongside the road from which it's separated by a metal rail. last year we spent weeks cutting year back rhododendrons overhanging that rail and obstructing the narrow road. On the other side of the narrow road, literally, is the sea. Salt water, tidal, with seals, the occasional whale, shark, submarine etc.
Very precise; but unfortunately, meaningless.
The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are heavily salt-laden.
Wrong. Goatfell is 2866 ft tall and lies directly north of the castle and gardens; so does not protect them from the prevailing wind, which is from the south-west.
Because Brodick Castle is so exposed to the wind, it's the site of weather station for the Meteorological Office.
Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils. Scotland is almost as good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require acidic soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil which results in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils become saline. And rhododendrons will no longer grow.
And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just about anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or saltmarshes. Your insistance to the contrary only works if the fairies are busily trumping science with their lovely magic spells. So you really might as well be repeatedly posting personal testimonies on how you can too set fire to H20.
In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity to shores or lochs, from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods. If you can cite something factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.
But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy life spent in all the gardens of scotland where every raincloud brings an imaginary salty deluge that delights those fairy-rhododendrons magically grown as barriers against the sea. I'm beginning to suspect you never leave the house at all. The depth of your current devotion to a bunch of nonsense really should be beneath you.
The message from Stephen Henning contains these words:
And the YBG garden goes down to 15m above the sea.
RBGE is on a raised beach a few hundred yards from the sea at Leith (an Edinburgh port). The elevation is 20 to 40 m, not 134 m as you claim. Figures from their own website below.
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is a map showing the garden's true location at the edge of the water, NOT as you claim >"Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not very close"..
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gives a map of Arduaine Garden, right on the coast and a maximum 100 ft above sealevel, NOT 239 ft as you claim.
The websites quoted belong to the Royal Botanical gardens (owners of Benmore and Edinburgh Botanical Garden) and The National Trust for Scotland, owners of Arduaine, Inverewe and Crarae.
When you argue with fools bystanders can't tell you apart. Azalea and every ericacious plant I have thusfar encountered will not grow submerged in seawater.
15M would not be under the sea in a storm surge, if it was it would have been washed out to sea. A little salt spray? perhaps with adequate rainfall to leach it out, otherwise no go.
The message from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:
Wrong.
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I haven't said Scottish soil is saline. It clearly isn't because it's fertile. However, plants (and everything else) are constantly salted-upon, because of weather conditions here. Because of the high rainfall, salt doesn't accumulate to a harmful degree as it does in dry climates like Australia's; but seasalt rain does contribute to our acid-rain problems.
Scotland is almost as
I haven't claimed the soil is saline. The original post to which I replied, said that ericaceous plants do not grow beside the sea. They do, here.
Wrong. There are many parts of Scotland where they can't grow. They do grow along the west coast shore. Perhaps your personal understanding of "shore" is limited; not all shores and seabords are sand beach or saltmarsh.
What saline soils? You clearly know nothing of gardening, irrigation or agriculture in Scotland.
If you can cite something
No part of Scotland is more than 40 miles from the sea. (There is no "300 miles inland", anywhere in Britain.). Salt blows in, on wind and rain, during storms.
That fairy tale is your own. Look up the websites in my post to Stephen, he has misled you.
If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly see how little you understand about even the most simple science.
The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.
You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong. Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?
Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).
Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate (especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I suggest the book "Global Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner (Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "
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> According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition
You're incompetent. That page makes it perfectly clear; quote
*"Where does the salt come from?
*Soil salt can come from three main sources:
1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete parts of Australia.
3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.
*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the source
*of stored salts. " end quote.
Presley has given another cite telling you the same thing.
I suggest you apply that to yourself, Stephen and Paghat. You jumped on the wrong bandwagon, Warren; your heroes are not the experts they pretend and now you've been hoist on their own petard of lies and deliberate misrepresentations.
Okay. You win. Azaleas will thrive in salty conditions.
I'm ready to go out and pour salt water on all my azaleas based on your convincing arguments. But just in case you're wrong, I'll wait until you put your money where your mouth is, and agree to pay for replacements if you turn out to be wrong.
Thank goodness you pointed out how everyone else lies so much, otherwise I'd never realize that you're the only generous who really knows how to grow azaleas!
Salt does not make things acidic, it buffers the acidity and raises the pH of acidic solutions. So if you have acid rain, you do not have saline rain. The reverse is true, acid rain causes salt depletion.
Which one, the one on the increased salinity of Australia's arid regions by rainwater or the picture of Brodick Castle with no rhododendrons or azaleas in it. We are not talking about property boundaries, but about where rhododendrons and azaleas thrive.
Just because you can raise rhododendrons and azaleas and own some swamp land doesn't mean that they thrive in swamp land. Let's use some logic here.
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