You are very vague about what you call near the sea, and very inaccurate
in your estimates. To be more precise:
RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very close.
Glendoick Gardens, 1.8 miles from the firth of Tay, even further.
Branklyn Garden, 3 miles from the firth of Tay, much further.
Invereww Gardens, 100 meters from Loch Ewe, close.
Arduaine Gardens, borders the Sound of Jura at one point, but no rhodies
there, very close.
Younger Botanic Garden (Benmore), 2 miles from Holy Loch, not the least
Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not very close.
Brodick Castle & Gardens runs down to about 100 meters from the firth of
Clyde, quite close.
None are at sea level or they would disappear at the highest tides.
Inverewe Gardens is the most exposed to the sea.
Arduaine Gardens in on a 239 ft. high slope of An Cnap overlooking the
Sound of Jura seimi-sheltered to the west by the 300 ft. tall Luing and
The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view point.
Brodick Castle & Gardens is situated on a sheltered plateau above the
firth of Clyde, but the gardens extend down near the highway along the
And Arduaine Gardens is not very near any place, but it is 16 mi. west
of Inveraray (43 mi. by road) & 20 mi. south of Oban, so Inveraray is
closest to Inveraray (not Inverary) if you look at a map.
How can areas with 60 to 90 inches of annual rainfall be salt laden?!?!?!
Inverewe Gardens, main rainfall 64 in.
Arduaine Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in.
Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore, mean rainfall 90 in.
Crarae Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in.
Brodick Castle & Gardens, mean rainfall 80 in.
Every one of these gardens has some protection from the prevailing
The RBGE is 1.5 miles inland and 134 m. high and nestled amongst large
Glendoick Gardens is 1.8 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees.
Branklyn Garden is 3 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees.
Inverewe Gardens (NT) the rhododendrons and azaleas are grown amongst
large trees in areas naturally sheltered behind "wind- and
salt-barriers" of Griselinia littoralis and other plants about 100 m
from the Southern tip of Loch Ewe where it is nestled.
Arduaine Gardens is nestled amongst large trees near the Sound of Jura
but is elevated and slightly shelterd from the westerly winds by the 300
ft tall Luing and Garvellachs.
Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore is 2 miles from the sea and nestled
amongst large trees. It is elevated and has much protection to the west.
Crarae Gardens is protected from the westerly winds on the east side of
a hillside nestled amongst large trees and is situated about 1000 feet
from Loch Fyne.
Brodick Castle & Gardens is protected from the westerly winds by the
3,866 foot tall Goatfell.
Wow, such an unfriendly accusation.
PS It is Inveraray that is in Argyll.
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Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
To be more precise:
Here's an example of your "precision":
You don't seem to know which, do you? Here's a picture; the garden is
below the castle and adjoins the sea
The "highway", is a narrow road, immediately adjoining the sea. It's
just wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other.The oldest and most
famous rhododendron area called the Planthunter's Walk, is at the bottom
of the garden alongside the road from which it's separated by a metal
rail. last year we spent weeks cutting year back rhododendrons
overhanging that rail and obstructing the narrow road. On the other
side of the narrow road, literally, is the sea. Salt water, tidal, with
seals, the occasional whale, shark, submarine etc.
Very precise; but unfortunately, meaningless.
The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
Wrong. Goatfell is 2866 ft tall and lies directly north of the
castle and gardens; so does not protect them from the prevailing wind,
which is from the south-west.
Because Brodick Castle is so exposed to the wind, it's the site of
weather station for the Meteorological Office.
Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils. Scotland is almost as
good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require acidic
soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil which results
in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils become saline. And
rhododendrons will no longer grow.
And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just about
anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or saltmarshes. Your
insistance to the contrary only works if the fairies are busily trumping
science with their lovely magic spells. So you really might as well be
repeatedly posting personal testimonies on how you can too set fire to
In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity to
shores or lochs, from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the
lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods. If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs
differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.
But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy life
spent in all the gardens of scotland where every raincloud brings an
imaginary salty deluge that delights those fairy-rhododendrons magically
grown as barriers against the sea. I'm beginning to suspect you never
leave the house at all. The depth of your current devotion to a bunch of
nonsense really should be beneath you.
-paghat the ratgirl
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
from email@example.com (paghat) contains these words:
I haven't said Scottish soil is saline. It clearly isn't because
it's fertile. However, plants (and everything else) are constantly
salted-upon, because of weather conditions here. Because of the high
rainfall, salt doesn't accumulate to a harmful degree as it does in dry
climates like Australia's; but seasalt rain does contribute to our
Scotland is almost as
I haven't claimed the soil is saline. The original post to which I
replied, said that ericaceous plants do not grow beside the sea. They
Wrong. There are many parts of Scotland where they can't grow.
They do grow along the west coast shore. Perhaps your personal
understanding of "shore" is limited; not all shores and seabords are
sand beach or saltmarsh.
What saline soils? You clearly know nothing of gardening, irrigation
or agriculture in Scotland.
If you can cite something
No part of Scotland is more than 40 miles from the sea. (There is no
"300 miles inland", anywhere in Britain.). Salt blows in, on wind and
rain, during storms.
That fairy tale is your own. Look up the websites in my post to
Stephen, he has misled you.
If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the
clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly
see how little you understand about even the most simple science.
The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no matter
how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you are using
as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect their rhodies
from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.
You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that accepted
science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little you know,
and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong. Save us all
the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of
humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to
deal with any further embarrassment.
Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.
According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 -
because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and
However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong
winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is
subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or even
a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search.
I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what hits
the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do with
what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY evident
that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on
them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the salts
through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is relatively low
in salts, and the plants have to have excellent drainage. A plant sitting in
a low spot with salt water swirling around its base is a goner - no
question. A plant on a hillside hit with a strong blast of very salty water
but subsequently flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of
the root zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish
rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is that they
live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty environments in
Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of rainfall:
"What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?
Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of water
nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by dissolving gasses
from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content essentially like
that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much more dilute) plus CO2 as
bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).
Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to place
because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of particulates
that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of gaesous acids (SO3,
NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of biome factors and anthopogenic
land use practices. Each of these gasses can be added in varying proportions
from natural and non natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and
NO2 far outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate (especially
the amount of precipitation in one area compared to another) will affect the
solute concentrations in terrestrial rainwaters. The result is highly
variable compositions, so there isn't one simple formula.
If you want to read up a bit on this and see data for rainwater from
many different locales globally, I suggest the book "Global Environment:
water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner (Prentice-Hall, 1996)
or a similar text "
You are misunderstanding the content of the site. Warren seemed to be
pretending that there is no saline content of rainfall whatsoever - that is
patently false. There are scientists who measure these things very
carefully, and they have weighed in on the matter in the sites below and
elsewhere. But buried in the same site are the words "SAME IONIC PROPORTIONS
BUT MUCH MORE DILUTE". There is a great deal of salt in many aquifers, but
the water is potable - because it is more DILUTE than seawater. As someone
from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in
sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze. Does
this mean it is coming in in quantities sufficient to kill vegetation? No.
Honestly, there are days I think reading comprehension should be a
prerequisite for internet participation.
Let's see now:
1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.
2) People who drink sea water die.
and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to firstname.lastname@example.org
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from
the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does
not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by
mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are
"the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely
detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in
mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the
groundwater or the rainfall is saltwater. It just doesn't mean that. As
sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as
seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.
Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were
salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead
because rainwater would be unfit to drink.
Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In
the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a
fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to
15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove
swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If
the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content,
tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall,
& the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the
earth would no longer be habitable my man.
What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is
NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.
It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.
And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean
dumps saltwater 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium
mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in
reality saltwater. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
-paghat the ratgirl
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:23:58 -0700, email@example.com
It is as bad as all that, Paggie. The abilities are down, the
increasinglies are up, way up. It's becoming harder and harder to
carry on simple, ordinary, succinct conversations with average
"It's beyond comprehension ... ". I like that.
"And your wise men don't know how it fee--ee-eels
To be thick
As a brick."
Me, I revere the small islands of sun drenched sanity that still
exist. Carry on.
So that says to you salt evaporates does it? Sodium isotopic signatures
are not evidence that freshwater is saltwater, no more than is a
fingerprint left on your booze glass proof that the glass is actually your
finger, or a crime lab's DNA reading from a cigarette butt proof that that
cigarettes are people. Here's an elementary school science fact for you:
Salt does not evaporate because it is non-volatile.
Perhaps you're legitimately not smart enough to tell saltwater from
freshwater, but the facts do remain salt does NOT evaporate into clouds &
it's loony to persist in your belief that it does. Rainfall does NOT
salinize soil as you persist in believing; the facts are the exact
opposite of what you eerily want to believe is true.
This really simple child's science experiment tends to convince the kiddies:
Dissolve precisely 15 ml of salt (about a tablespoon) in a half a cup of
water. Set in sun until water evaporates. Weigh salt. From this a very
young school child learns that salt does not evaporate or undergo any
chemical alteration in water. Alas, I suspect YOUR conclusion would have
to be that the 15 ml of crystals left in the cup is dehydrated water
concentrate, because the salt evaporated.
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
No, it doesn't. What salinates the soil in Australia is too
complicated to get into here, it has to do with underground salt
deposits, the loss of native cover and the inability of the soil to
deal with all the water. The salt is already there, in vast
underground stores. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3564857.stm for a bit of
what's going on.
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
Where do you think that underground salt store comes from? See below.
I've capitalised it, for the benefit of those with poor reading and
The Dept of Agriculture, Western Australia, whose information I cited
and quoted, surely has researched and understands more about
Australian soil salination than a BBC journalist writing a onepage
soundbite for the general public.
The BBC article describes the process and results of soil salination,
but does not give a proper explanation of where the salt in the ground
comes from. The AUs govt site does, and states quite clearly that salty
rain is one of three sources of the soil salt, especially in coastal
areas. I'm very surprised you haven't checked the more authoritative
information there, but here for the THIRD time is what they say; (quote
"Where does the salt come from?
Soil salt can come from three main sources:
1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete parts
3. From wind blown salt, USUALLY IN RAIN WATER FROM THE OCEAN.
SALT IN RAINFALL can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually inland
with low rainfall) to more than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually coastal
with high rainfall). IN MOST OF AUSTRALIA THIS IS THE SOURCE OF STORED
Stored salt levels
Salt becomes stored in the landscape through the balance of salt input
(through rainfall) and loss through leaching or drainage from the
catchment. In areas where potential evaporation is high and rainfall is
low (semi-arid and arid zones), salt falls on the landscape but is not
flushed out. It therefore accumulates, usually below the root zone of
original native vegetation. " (end quote)
They also suggest further reading at
Hingston, FJ and Gailitis, V (1976) The geographic variation of salt
precipitated over Western Australia. Aust. J. Soil Res., v.14,
Get that? It tells you there is scientific, peer reviewed, accepted
agricultural research in Australia into salt precipitated over western
Australia. For the dumber Americans here, precipitated means it fell in
rain. All you have to do, to learn more about how that rained salt
becomes part of the soil salination problem, is read the WA salination
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:38:19 +0100, Janet Baraclough
WTF does this have to do with Americans? BTW I am a citizen of the
United States NOT an American....American covers N and S
America....seems your knowledge base needs some updating!
Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine,
one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold
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