Rototilling

Mr. Hare-Scott, where in this thread did I blow hot air?? I twice referenced, with sources, hard pan resulting from rototilling. Where in this thread did I miss the point that gardening is complex and different approaches work in different situations? I'm far from calling Gunny names, because my life became simpler when I KF'd him. I suggest that in the future you save your B.S. for your garden.

I'm not responsible for your, or Gunny's "gruntelment". Please, make an effort to get it right next time, or take your poison somewhere else.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash. It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks and the portfolios of the uber-rich.

Not looking for certainty, David, just honesty. Lords knows we don't want that evil rototiller to compact the little bit of dirt we have left in our gardens, especially after we used all those evil "chemfarts" and chemicals to make it look so pretty, now do we?

Put the anecdotal voodoo science in billys cut and paste amazon eco book of the week club aside for a moment. What is this "mainstream" agricultural problem we need to avoid in our garden? Rototilling?????? or is it the preception you WILL get Plow Sole? really???? a mechanically induced hardpan will might happen under certain conditions in my garden? Piling up a bunch of wet newspaper on top of my clay soil is going to do just that.

No, David, that is my point. There is NO ONE single method and to that point, to demonize rototilling with such BS is intellectual dishonesty.

I have no problem with anyone laying paper all over their property , but don't be "citationing" some very misleading anecdotal eco fringy bullshit saying rototillers WILL cause hardpan and the seven plaques of Egypt . Its the fool behind the tool.... or the keyboard in the case of the OP and his posse.

It is not dishonesty. Politics is in every subject on the planet. Their are left wing people against nuclear power and right wing for nuclear power and some in the middle. As in Gardening the Left Wing wants to be natural, which is best for the planet. The right wing wants connivence and practical but may not be what is best for the planet in the long run.

I find each person here is true to themselves and in my book diversity is a good thing over conformity. One side can be wrong, if their is a balance in society there is a good chance of survival. If one side grabs too much, I could be very good or more than likely very bad. It is good to have different views.

I am left to center and I suspect Gunner is left to right. Billy is far left which is fine, the world needs a standard bearer for that view. Just like Monsanto is the standard bearer of the far right. Since I am left to center I will place Monsanto on the dark side. Billy to me is like the priest and I am the occasional sinner of gardening.

Gardening in my book Gardening is an ART, not a science and views can differ greatly.

William Blake wrote about 1810. "No progress without contraries."

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i've had mixed results with rototilling.

the most recent round was last summer when i killed off an invasive plant species and then leveled a large area (to eliminate a gully that was forming).

the tilling did help break the soil up making raking and leveling a much easier task. it also provided a nice fluffy seedbed for the spiral design i planted (too fluffy, i should have firmed it up a bit before seeding it in).

last winter we had good snow cover and i didn't lose much of anything. we'll see how the next winter goes.

the major negative from the tilling was the spread of a different invasive plant species seeds through the area. i now have about 20-30 more hours of hand weeding to get it out and then consistent weeding to keep it out (probably for a few years before it will be gone). luckily i've done this before for this species so i know it can be done. i won't resort to spraying again. most of the seedlings are still alive under the smothering growth, they just aren't going to perform as well as i'd like until i free them up.

the 9 hours of weeding i've already done is looking nice as the rains have perked the seedlings up. now a few more days of sunshine to dry things out so i can finish the rest. the plants need to get some more growth on to be self-shading before the hot and dryer period starts up.

the clay is about as compacted as it was before i tilled. tilling didn't accomplish much there. once the worms finished up all the rotted organic material from before i'm not seeing much activity, except in the pathway where i'm piling the weeds.

the next big project is to terrace the red patch, i'm turning it into a mixed garden. i won't till it because it has hundreds of perennials already that i want to leave in place as much as possible. i hope i can start that tomorrow or the next day. even if i can only get the top few levels done that would be a big help and a nice start.

i can't think of any other gardens i would have to till. the biggest garden i normally spade wouldn't do as well if i tilled. i need the larger clumps of soil to pile up for a long mound i make to plant the cosmos on. it being a low spot i use the trench to catch water and the mound to keep the cosmos high, dry and the roots happy. if it were tilled the soil would run down faster and the cosmos would fall over in the wind.

my other previous uses of tilling has been mostly to mix amendments. for larger areas now i've just mixed it by hoe in the wheelbarrow and then spread it out. for smaller already established gardens i don't do that any more. if something needs to be added, i put it in the mulch and the worms, rain and gravity do their thing to incorporate it. peaceful that way...

songbird

So you spend another post the same as the last one saying that you agree with me. Weird.

You are Billy should both get over your evangelism.

You both should get over your evangelism.

Yes David.... I agree with you that saying rototillers WILL cause hardpan is a lie.

Is that easier to understand

So instead of making that plain in one sentence from the start you throw in a few choice goads about 'eco-fringe' and waste time chiding me because I wasn't being absolute with remarks like 'MAY, PERHAPS, COULD, MIGHT', which qualification you subsequently agree with. So 6 or 10 more posts are added to thread for no good reason. As I said before: weird.

You mean you should have rolled it?

What kind of seedlings?

You will get that from spading the soil as well.

You didn't blend in sand, and organic material? Are we talking lawn, ornamentals, or veggies?

Do mean that you're not seeing worms, or not seeing the benefit of the worms? Could it be the vermicide that you committed with the rototiller? When you dig, do you find earthworms? (How many, and what size?)

When soil is first prepped for a garden, rototilling, and double digging make sense, because it will speed up the development of the soil (still the hardpan problem created by the rototiller still needs to be addressed. After the garden is established, both (rototilling, and double digging) just undo the work that the worms, fungi, and other members of the soil ecosystem have done.

Oops, besides tilling, the "N" in NPK also stimulates microorganisms to devour the organic material (carbon) in the soil. The best balance of carbon to nitrogen is the 25/1 ration, I've been yammering on about. The up-shot of it all is that your soil will be better aerated, and will drain better if the tunneling by insects, and worms isn't destroyed with a shovel, or that "vermicidal apocalypse" called the rototiller. But, hey, if someone doesn't want to preserve aerated and better draining soil, it's no skin off my nose.

"Tickle the earth with a hoe, it will laugh a harvest." - Mary Cantell

Recognizing sarcasm is not a strong suit huh?

David, what is weird is all this pretentious self righteous indignation of your most precious time being wasted after you give your "position" lecture. Next time just say you all pissy because I said eco-fringy.