Thanks for the link.
Their choice Japanese maple (Acer palmatum) cultivars are propagated entirely by grafting never from cuttings.
Layne lied and merits no further consideration on this topic.
They may have rooted them but the plants did not survive very long because of the very poorly developed root system.
That hardly qualifies as successful propagation.
The bottom line is that trying to propagate Acer palmatum cultivars from cuttings is a total waste of time.
Cereus, you're just not reading your own link very carefully. I will quote extensively below:
"Actually most of the non-commercial growers in Japan are still growing Maples on their own roots. Why, because the Maples will live longer than grafted Maples will. That has proved out in Japan as well as here in the US. To the plantman in Japan the Maple becomes a sibling, no longer is a plant per say. Just look how an Apple grower, most of them being home gardeners nurtures one individual Apple as if it is a long lost soul that has been recently found. To them the Apple becomes a treasure and there is honor in perpetuating the treasure and to do that we do not incorporate a second genome into the Maple by grafting it. The Maple no longer becomes a pure sibling is how the traditionalist people I knew and know in Japan will look at things right or wrong.
We grafted most all of our Maples but we did do cuttings as well. The Achilles heel of the Japanese Maple has always been the feet, the understock. People talk about Verticillium as if they know what they are writing about only because a book author, a pathologist or someone they trust told them about the pathogen. What no one wants to talk about is that there is a slow decline form found in all Japanese Maples to an extent and there is the quick decline form that is generally only seen from grafted Maples. In the last couple of years I've seen evidence of the old quick decline form again and we will see it start out as a whitish discoloration in the rootstock. Then the top will wilt and quickly die on us, then shortly thereafter the rootstock turns black in splotches and also dies. Had that happen to me this year with 8 of the 16 Maples I purchased from an Oregon grower. We never saw the quick decline form of Verticillium in our grafted Maples at the nursery. I've never seen the quick decline form of Verticillium in any Maple on its own roots anywhere and I've been to enough places to have seen a few of these things. I fully agree that Maples on their own roots have a pre-eminent place in the forefront among Maple propagation.
I have a problem with the commercialization gathered from information in this forum that is being used away from this forum. Tell you what, get some more posts in this forum under your belt and then send me a private message and we can talk about cutting grown rootstocks then, how's that?
Jim
] Cereus, you're just not reading your own link very carefully. I will quote ] extensively below: ] [snip]
Hello Greg,
It is often difficult to rely on pure internet sources, because there is no face or reputation behind the post. I'm interested in what "Jim" has to say, but I don't know how seriously to take him.
However I notice that the maple society posters in the thread do not recommend growing from cuttings.
I quoted Vertrees earlier in this thread. (It might be noted that he is the spiritual mentor of the folks at Mountain Maples, so I find it surprising that they don't mostly follow his methods. I didn't find any success rates for cuttings quoted on their site, but in any event I expect they are able to provide environments like mist that are far beyond the capabilities of the amateur.) Someone in the cited thread quotes van Gelderen/de Jong, and I repeat it here:
"A significant disadvantage of propagation by cuttings is that all the roots are clonal. A number of species and cultivars, including Acer palmatum, do not form vigorous trees on their own roots....Clonal plants on clonal roots are far more susceptible [to Verticillium dahliae(wilt disease)] than those grafted on species rootstock. In this author's opinion, commercial propagation of cultivars of A. palmatum by cuttings is to be avoided, although many growers have a different view."
I don't know what other growers he is referring to, but I doubt many are in Europe. (I buy maples from van Gelderen and can vouch for the very fine quality and the passion of the family for maples. He is widely acknowledged as the expert on Acer in the western world, including of course palmatum, of which he has named many cultivars.)
Another maple expert I have dealings with is James Harris of Mallet Court Nursery. Mr. Harris sits on the management committee of Hillier Gardens, is a fellow of the Linnean Society and a member of the council of the International Dendrology Society. He is among the foremost British maple experts and Mallet Court is a leading propagator.
Harris says: "Grafting is often preferred to cuttings as the plants grow away better and establish themselves more quickly. Also it is not unknown for maples that are propagated by cuttings to collapse and die after four or five years. It is not clear what causes this phenomenon and, as far as I know, no research [as to the cause] has been done so far."
This doesn't speak to the difficulty of growing from cuttings, but that is amply documented also.
In the literature there is little room for doubt that growing A. palmatum from cuttings is very difficult to do and may have heartbreaking results somewhat later. Does that mean it's impossible? No. Just not recommended. As I mentioned before, if you're inclined to try, I'd be the first to wish you the best of luck.
-E
[snip]
Cereus say 'can not'. Discussion now 'should not'. Big difference. One side, "impossible". Other side, "not advised".
Although Layne claims otherwise, their personal experience trying has always been unsuccessful.
Those you believe are saying "not advised" are doing so on the basis of what others have said.
The bottom line is that it just doesn't work and it is a waste of time and materials trying. Two different pathways to the same conclusion, Larry. Not a big difference at all.
OK, OK...you convince me. Tell you what - you no tell my three old layer Japanese Red Maple, I not tell either. Deal?
Why most people say cutting grown maples don't do well on their own roots vs. grafted maples is all nonsense. You just have to understand the "why". You have to understand and know the care involved in cutting grown Acer palmatums. I will not go into it here as Cereus doesn't care to know the "why" and he doesn't deserve to understand and know the care involved.
Regards,
Layne
Cross your fingers that your air layered plant survives the winter. What special treatment do you give it? Do you have it planted out in the garden or as a container plant?
What more can one say to someone who refuses to accept what their own personal experience has taught them?
You said you yourself were unsuccessful in rooting the cuttings. There is no deeper meaning "why". Why don't you just accept that and move on with your life? Just let it go. Its not worth going insane over.
No special treatment except 1-3 mix compost to dirt. Maple now in third winter in 5 gallon nursery container.
Well, if we all thought like you we wouldn't have known the earth was round, had gone to the moon, or have airplanes, or known about all the lifeforms in the deep ocean, I could go on...the thing is I'm not going into uncharted territory here. It's been done successfully before, just not by *me*. The Wright brothers didn't fly at Kitty Hawk on the first try, or second, or third. In fact, it took them 4 years to develop, through trial and error, the first flying airplane. There's lots to learn regarding growing Acer palmatums from cuttings...hopefully I won't take four years to figure it out.
Last season had been my first attempt and all was going quite well with the handful of cuttings I took from my cultivars. One larger cutting in particular was going on a month and looking fine, but I failed to realize some thing and slapped my head at *my* stupid mistake.
This coming season I'm going to do a couple of air layers, maybe some grafts, and yes cuttings. I'll report back here and let you know if I fail or succeed.
FWIW, my azalea cuttings (which should be easier to grow from cuttings) didn't take either and for the same stupid reason my Acers didn't take.
Layne
Poor misguided "always have to have the last word" Layne.
No doubt that you are one of the Wrong brothers because you know nothing of which you speak. The only thing that is flat around here is your retarded attitude. If anybody were looking for intelligent life, you would not be under any consideration. You can take you half wit straw man arguments and shove it.
The difference between you and the Wright brothers is that they did a thorough review of the literature and experimented many years before ever making any claims. They also knew when to move on when one set of assumptions didn't work out.
Actually the Wright brothers made their first flights with a full scale flying machine at Kill Devil Hills because of the steady wind there. Their first successful flying machine was actually a motorized glider rather than an actual airplane.
Another great invention of the brothers is the wind tunnel for testing models of their flying machines long before risking their lives trying to fly a full scale model.
You will never figure out how to successfully grown Acer palmatum from cuttings. Much greater minds that you have tried and failed. At least they had the sense when to move on to more rewarding problems worth the effort solving.
In the words of that great philosopher William Shatner: "Get a life".
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