cabbage

heh, yeah, they sure leave huge piles of droppings. yet they have to reach adult size eventually.

it has really helped a lot to rinse the plants off after picking the worms. makes the next round of hand picking easier.

in picking them off today i've gotten the population down significantly. only a few dozen today and most of them the smaller sized ones. will check again later.

looks like hand picking will be tolerable.

brocolli must be easier. you don't have to find 'em inside the curling leaves.

songbird

Reply to
songbird
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Billy wrote: ... where is this quoted from?

and this too? quoted from?

we have tons of herbs flowering most of the season. right now the mints, oreganoes, thymes are full of bees. many different species of bees too, i'm glad to see.

i don't let queen-anne's-lace grow here, but i could tolerate fennel, dill, cilantro, parsley. also, plenty of buckwheat scattered around.

also have shasta daisy and chamomile in places. asters grow wild, and we try to keep a few plants going in the gardens, but they don't seem to do well in our soil. the one's in the ditches do much better.

will have to search for pictures of them as i probably have seen them about...

songbird

Reply to
songbird

I augment my herbs with alyssum to attract beneficial insects.

Otherwise, you may want to look at

For those who may have just tuned in, this part of what is called INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT.

Reply to
Billy

songbird wrote: ...

further read "In Britain, it has two flight periods, April?May and July?August, but is continuously-brooded in North America, being one of the first butterflies to emerge from the chrysalis in spring, flying until hard freeze in the fall."

that last bit made me think one critter flew all season...

after reading other sources it looks like there are at least two (and perhaps three) flights in this area each season.

at 200-400 eggs per critter that's a lot of worms -- even if only some of them make it to hatching and chewing stages.

i haven't seen them flying at all the past few days (heat sensitive?).

songbird

Reply to
songbird

and here's another example of how farming in the current form creates problems for gardeners and organic growers...

right now the farmers spray their fields with herbicides. the drift kills off ground cover in the neighboring ditches, creeks, roadsides, etc (increasing erosion and pollution) and the wild mustards take over bare spots fairly quickly.

there is no shortage of hosts around here for these critters.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

phorbin wrote: ...

it just so happened i was able to observe a wasp carry off a cabbage worm this morning. :)

songbird

Reply to
songbird

the picking of worms rapidly tapered off after the first week. i find a worm here or there now, but nothing like before.

the second flight of butterflies is on. i'm now finding many specks on the bottom of the leaves and figure they are likely to be eggs from these butterflies.

i'll keep my eyes peeled the next few days when i can get back outside to look for eggs again.

i'm just knocking them off onto the ground or bottom leaves. i'm not sure how effective that will be. perhaps much better to use sticky tape or to brush them into soapy water. we'll see how it goes.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

I just roll them between finger and thumb as I pick them. A little caterpiller juice never hurt anyone. (At least that's my hope.)

Reply to
Drew Lawson

the eggs are very tiny, i suppose i could try to mash them with my fingers but they are pretty small and fall off when i touch them.

the worms i drown in soapy water.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

If I see the eggs, I rub them a bit in hopes that they smush. I am not sure that they do.

But at this stage of life, I don't do well spotting tiny eggs near ground level unless I crawl. I spend enough time on my knees dealing with the creaping thistles, I'm not doing that for cabbage worm eggs.

Next year I may add cabbage to the broccoli. Either way, I am strongly considering row covers for next year, as long as it is a reusable material.

Reply to
Drew Lawson

yeah, it's a challenge, i only get the ones up higher and those i can get to easily. others i hope the wasps will get when they hatch.

in today's inspection (after being away for several days) the eggs are not as many, a few small worms and not much else, nor much new damage, even with many butterflies about i think the wasps have now caught up with the population of worms hatching. i don't know if the wasps or ants get the eggs or what feeds on those, but there were many fewer than i expected. perhaps ladybugs.

i hope you can find someting durable and not too expensive.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

Polymer mesh used for netting fruit trees is cheap and will last quite a few seasons especially if not put under stress. You could make hoops out of polypipe to stand it off the plants or just drape it over. You can water and inspect through the mesh and just lift it to harvest. I find this a very simple solution to cabbage butterflies.

David

Reply to
David Hare-Scott

Been using derris dust for over 50 years...good control of cabbage worms and the derris dust has not harmed me one iota. Why put up with these pests when it is so easy to dust the cabbages?

Reply to
Roy

Derris dust is a poisinous preparation of crushed roots from the Derris plant. Other plants also contain the active ingredient ,called Rotenone, and are sometimes used. Rotenone is a naturally occurring substance in many plants. In the past it was considered to be relatively safe however new research suggests that this may not be the case. Rotenone is extremely toxic to fish so Derris dust should never be used near waterways,etc.

In 2010, a study was published detailing the progression of Parkinson's-like symptoms in mice following chronic intragastric ingestion of low doses of rotenone. The concentrations in the central nervous system were below detectable limits, yet still induced PD pathology.

In 2011, a US National Institutes of Health study showed a link between rotenone use and Parkinson's disease in farm workers.

Bon Apptit

Reply to
Billy

Why kill so many invertebrates indescriminately when a bit of net will selectively keep out the butterflies and prevent them laying? Why keep applying dust every time it rains or you water (if watering overhead) when the net will work the entire growing season with no effort required? Old habits die hard but give it a try. I am not so dogmatic as to say never use insecticides but when it saves money, effort and collateral damage it's a very easy decision.

David

Reply to
David Hare-Scott

The original post was looking for alternatives to poison.

My grandfather used it. He never thought anything of it until it made a grandson sick.

Why fight them when a simple method to exclude them will do?

Reply to
phorbin

I tried row covers for a while. The problem was, under cover the earwigs** and slugs went wild (especially the earwigs). The covers protected them from predators. The lack of air circulation lead to fungus problems (especially for cucumbers).

So now I grow kholrabi in the spring (because it matters not if the leaves get a bit tattered) and bok choi in the fall and forget about heading types of cabbage at home. No more pretty looking heads laced through with worms or earwigs and their excrement.

**BTW, this is a BANNER YEAR for earwigs. They may have ruined my fence charger. It was PACKED FULL of earwigs. Good thing I had a backup. The groundhogs have been feeding on mulberry leaves that keep shooting up along the neighbor's fence. The shock wire is the only thing that keeps them going over the garden fence.
Reply to
Pat Kiewicz

Roy wrote: ...

we've had this conversation before Roy. it may not have harmed you. it may harm others or it may harm other creatures i wish not to harm.

it seems to be going ok for now just by hand-picking and observing. as i won't be the person chopping and turning these cabbages into saurkraut i won't likely know what the final results will look like. i'll have to remember to ask.

cabbage worm excrement is likely about as edible as saurkraut, but i'm sure most of it washes off anyways. really, i'd not worry about that problem any more than i worry about a bit of dirt on a strawberry or some cheeses.

songbird

Reply to
songbird

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