Disagreement: If you're going to this length, you should use a more
reasonable figure for time-to-rescue of 7 days. 72 hours
is the figure used for people who are trying to do the best
they can with what's available. 72 hours is what you should
keep in the trunk of your car.
| >The answer will be a storm-proof safe room built on top of this
| >concrete structure. It will probably be the size of a large bathroom
| >and made of steel or concrete for protection against flying debris or
| >tree falls. It should be capable of being buttoned down and float
| >upright like a boat should it be dislodged. At that level of storm
| >intensity there is no longer any consideration of living in it to
| >guard your property. All you want is to survive the perfect storm and
| >get the hell out, a stay of less than 48 hours.
| Disagreement: If you're going to this length, you should use a more
| reasonable figure for time-to-rescue of 7 days. 72 hours
| is the figure used for people who are trying to do the best
| they can with what's available. 72 hours is what you should
| keep in the trunk of your car.
Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
| Seems to me Noah planned for a longer stay.
| Also seems his structure was a bit bigger too.
| You were there?
There are days when I feel as if I were.
Mostly, I have to go by what I read.
Bottom line is 30 days! Katrina shows areas still under flood waters, well
after a week. The object is NOT rescue! I maintain 6 months food and water
in my food cellar. This will allow me to ride out the worst and be able to
relocate to safer area if need be and still maintain a solid homefront!
Precisely my point...to do what HMFIC wants in general is a very
difficult and expensive task. You can be prepared for ordinary events
pretty well and make things a lot easier on yourself, but in a
catastrophic situation things are likely to get out of hand for almost
everybody in the affected area.
Yes, when one attempts to do something inherently fool^h^h^h^hrisky, one
should at least make the effort to protect the investment. It's still
an area not really suitable for the use.
Those that were flooded, probably not, although what is going to be done
is pretty well still in the future...
Relocated, yes. Permanent location, job? I suspect that would probably
be <<1%, so far.
Some is, a of lot that isn't even left or worth the cost of rebuilding,
either. They're talking of trashing the Superdome, even, which was a
pretty substantial structure and investment.
130 mph is strong, but certainly far below the full-force 200+ mph plus
storm surge of a head-on coastal barrage. 130 mph is "designable" for
survival at a cost that isn't <totally> prohibitive. As you're well
aware, that cost will escalate rapidly as the design criteria rise.
Guaranteeing, after the rest are elevated that the low spots will then
As it should be if in such a location. It simply isn't a very good
choice of location for building permanent structures. I've thought what
folks who want to live in such places should do would be to simply build
disposable houses and when the big one comes leave, planning from the
beginning to simply bulldoze and start again. Be cheaper, structurally,
albeit less convenient.
The food is expensive? Look if need be I can pack a canoe or the Kayaks and
head where ever!
Don't over estimate the fear factor, in a catastrophic event, you already
beat the system if you live. Then you have to address what and where. I'm
located in a pretty good valley that protects is from all directions because
of how it follows the river. I could flood but that would have to be enough
to flood the whole valley and since it's most narrow miles north the flood
plains will handle it there. and honestly if anything does flood the food
and gear are all sealed.
I wouldn't build a house to take a Cat 5, I'd let it go and move!!!
No, not specifically. They have made some efforts particularly since
the spate of FL hurricanes to address design issues regarding roofs,
etc., for enhancing survivability. The results I've seen haven't been
uniformly successful attempts as, for one example, the guidelines for
upgrading asbestos shingle roofs apparently were developed and published
internally or w/ consulting input but not using any input from any of
the manufacturers, etc. Consequently, there are published guidelines
for which there are no commercially available materials to meet.
Less than 50 cubic feet, but not much less.
If you stored it under the bed,
the bed would have to be 32" high, plus the mattress.
It would also weigh in excess of one US statute ton,
so you might want to spread it around a bit.
Dinty Moore Beef stew is 222 calories/cup,
so you need 10 cups/day. Since it comes in cans,
there's wasted space to the tune of an extra 25%
so the storage volume is 12.5 cups/day or
around 10 days/cubic foot, for food.
Counting the wasted space, water is around
7 gallons/cubic foot. with around, .4cuft
Figure 2000 calories/day, and 1 gallon of water.)
Use the space between cans and bottles for
vitamin supplements, other drugs, variety-food)
Each of your 1,800 cups of stew weighs
236 grams, or around 1/2 a pound,
call it 1,000 pounds of stew and can.
Each of your 180 gallons of water
weighs 8 1/3 pounds or 1500 pounds,
Note that you can probably get your food
volume/weight down if you work at it,
but most of the really lightweight/small
packaged foods depend on having a ready
supply of water to re-constitute.
Rumor has it that eating a dehydrated
ration without rehydrating it FIRST is really,
really bad. As in, may well kill you bad.
I'm not a survivor nut just a Cosco, BJ, Sams kind a guy. Food really not
much space, but water is a lot, but you can cut water if using a lot of
canned foods (because of water). I keep lots of dried legumes, nuts and
fruits. I also pick up cases of ensure and power bars when on sale. But
don't laugh I actually have a river next to the house... The water is for
the little woman. I got my filtration pac.
I use 1/2 Gal. perday this is good for heat of summer. I have 20 5 gallon
and 10 1 gallon and 6 32 bottle cases. With all the food and gear 12 foot
wide by 36" deep and 8 foot high. It takes up one small wall.
The water is really no problem I get it delivered, plus we don't use tap
here many years ago it was great but the last 10 heavy chlorination. and
normal daily use is pretty consistent with morning coffee to 1 G.
There's a big clue whenever you see news shots of the flooded city.
What structures are still standing, almost completely untouched?
The big apartment buildings.
Just build multistory buildings, and put all essential building
utilities on the second floor or higher. Let the bottom floor have only
easily repaired interiors and utilities. Connect the second floors
of the buildings using a system of walkways just like in Minneapolis.
You could even build the walkways open air, using the wrought iron
balcony style popular for Mardi Gras in New Orleans. This would make
the city a fun place to visit.
Essentially this is the "house on stilts" idea but on a big enough scale
you could house a population of 500,000 in a densely populated area.
For car storage some buildings would use the lower 3 or 4 stories for
car parks. Again, visit Minneapolis to see this sort of structure.
You'd need fewer cars since this would be a densely populated area with
lots of people able to walk to work.
This is the future.
Of course, this doesn't fit in with the real estate agent / developer
scenaria where every American is isolated on his own lot with 2 acres of
grass to mow every weekend. That's going to prove economically
non-viable when fuel prices rise, anyway.
And big office buildings.
And big hospitals.
And big hotels.
And big police stations are also all standing.
1970s style megastructures. Yeehah!
But really, your idea of putting essential building utilities on the
above the water line in floods is one I had before (re: thread titled
"why don't they" on alt.architecture.
I suggested it for certain buildings that are of importance during
catastrophes - hospitals in particular. They are often full of people
who are in various states of disability who would have difficulty
evacuating or may not survive evacuation. Furthermore, hospitals should
be up and running during natural disasters and other catastrophes in
order to be used by those suffering injury during the natural disaster.
In retrospect, it would be a good idea, though not as crucial, for fire
stations and police stations to have the same hurricane resistance and
auxiliary power systems as the hospitals. That way first responders can
better do their jobs.
But doing it for every apartment building? Very excessive. Unless the
people who choose to live in apartment buildings want it and the people
leasing apartments can sell it.
I shudder to think of the poor old woman stuck on the 17th floor,
surrounded by gangs of roaming youths who are ready to break in at any
This is what happens when you ignore peoples' desires for open space and
the privacy of private homes and cram them into giant megastructures
where the identity of their home is reduced to a mere number on a door.
Just go over to Yahoo and do a search for "Housing Projects, Chicago" -
you'll see what I mean.
People use their cars.
And Katrina showed us just how vital cars are to the evacuation of
cities. Simply put, if you were in New Orleans and could get a car out,
you were MUCH better off than you would have been if you were one of the
thousands who didn't have a car or a spot in someone else's car.
Access to transportation was really the issue in New Orleans; not
directly socio-economics or race. The rich new urbanist yuppie lawyer
who refused to drive on principal was stuck in New Orleans. (He was
interviewed on NPR) The cabbie who recently arrived from Pakistan and
works 18 hours a day 6 days a week so his family can live at the poverty
level could use his cab to get out of the city. (I saw him driving down
the road in Houston right after I heard the first guy's interview on the
No it's not.
Bullshit. And I know what you're saying is bullshit because if you
visit France, or Spain, or Germany, you'll see people living in private
suburban houses and driving cars to and from work. Meanwhile they
snicker when America goes into crisis over $3 a gallon prices at the
pump, because that's what they've been paying all along. In fact, many
Europeans pay significantly more than that for gas, and it hasn't
dampened their desire for comfortable, private, individual houses.
Their entire nation of Holland is like the city of New Orleans - below
sea level and prone to very nasty storms and floods. It's also a nation
with all of the high fuel prices and gas taxes as the rest of Europe.
But the Dutch haven't abandoned private houses and cars - they've
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