The SawStop, How will you let it affect you? (Long)

Well for those of you that managed to find the splinter post that was started concerning the SawStop, I have a proposal and or a suggestion. Most of you know my views on the subject and I am not going to repeat them. I certainly know most of your views and you need not repeat them here unless they can be constructive. As it seems the SawStop idea is for the most part accepted as a good idea by most every one that has seen it or read about it. We are not so fond of the method of delivery to the public. Some less fond of it than others. If the SawStop proposal goes through and is approved by the government many of us have indicated that we are simply not going to purchase a tables saw as our way to protest the SawStop company and its tactics. Some of us will buy the table saw despite the tactics used to market the SawStop. Some of us simply will not be able to afford a new table saw with the mandated modification. For most this is not a rosy picture that we see before us. We want the freedom to buy a new table saw and have a choice over the options that come with the saw. We want to be able to afford to buy a new table saw with out the government and or an outside company dictating how the table saw will be equipped, and some of us will simply look at this modification as just another government mandated requirement, buy the saw, and go on with life. Not all of us are professional woodworkers and only perhaps a few of us in this group are students. Some of us as individuals want the right to be able to choose or not choose this SawStop modification and fiercely oppose the tactics used by the Saw Stop company. Some of us work for a company and use a table saw but have absolutely no say in what equipment is purchased and or with which options. Some of us may be students in school just learning this great skill of wood working. Those that are individuals that do this for a living or as a hobby feel that their personal safety is totally up to themselves and want to decide for themselves what and what not to buy with out government intervention. Some of us would love to see this option implemented on the saws at out work place as we have seen and heard stories about the dangers of operating a table saw. We work day in and day out sometimes for hours on end doing tedious work on the table saw and may become complacent about our safety. We have mouths to feed and bills to pay. We cannot afford to be out of work because of an injury and yet we want our freedom. A few of us take shop in school and we are working in a learning environment with machines every where we look. We spend an hour or so a day taking in all the instructions, safety rules, building techniques, and all the noises that the machines make. It can be a bit overwhelming to many of us in this class room filled with machines that can do much harm to us unless we are 110% focused. Not totally unlike driving the car for the first time in traffic with all the other motorists. There are all kinds of outside elements to distract us from what we must remain focused on, that being our personal safety. A horn honks beside us and we quickly look around to see what the trouble is and look back down the road to find that we changed lanes or hit the curb. Back in the shop we are ripping a board for the very first time and some one else is cranking up the planer to plane a board to the correct thickness. We jump when we hear the planer roar as the wood passes through and when we look back down at our push stick we realize that some how it has slipped and slid down the board when we jumped, our hand coming way too close to the blade. Or maybe we just sneezed and jumped a bit. Perhaps you have a child in this school shop also. An added element of safety would certainly be appreciated to the uninitiated. We are all in this boat together and we all have different priorities. What a dilemma. I mentioned a couple of different woodworking scenarios in the other thread concerning those that have no say in the purchasing of equipment. They should also have the right to be able to work or learn on equipment that is as safe as it can be manufactured. The Saw Stop or a similar safety devise would probably be requested by those 2 groups with out question if only they had any say. So here we are, at a cross road. The Saw Stop is a remarkable new product that most certainly will prevent accidents from becoming major injuries, but not all of us can afford the luxury of having such a product or simply will not have such a devise because of his or her beliefs in what freedom to choose means. Freedom like everything else worth having comes with a price. Many of us, our fathers, grand fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, cousins, sons, daughters, and friends have given to our country above and beyond the norm to preserve our freedom. A courageous and admirable group of individuals they are. I hold a great respect and admiration for all of these relatives and friends of ours for they have gone the extra mile for what they believe in and would go many more to insure that what they have accomplished remains in place for them selves and the rest of us. We owe them more than we could ever express in words. Too many of them have given the ultimate price for us. With this long winded thread I have taken the first step in trying to pull this group together on this issue so that we can all come to terms with what may be a crucial turn of events in the wood working industry and for the individual hobbyists. The SawStop company is going after the requirement that most all 12" and smaller new table saws be required to have their product or one like it. They have invested their time and money into coming up with a product that appears to be quite complex and effective for the avoidance of injuries resulting from personal contact with a spinning table saw blade. They have demonstrated their product and seem to have been well received at numerous wood working shows and events . They have contacted numerous table saw manufacturers and have had built what appears to be a few prototypes of the finished product that they are now taking advanced orders for. But now they have legally approached the government with patents and a petition to require their product be use on most all the table saws that you or I would ever buy. IIRC this group of people are patent attorneys and have done their home work. IMHO they have better that a 50/50 chance of having this proposal mandated by the government. Not so good news for some, Ok news for others, and good news for the rest. So for those that fall in the "Not so good news or OK news" group, what are "you" going to do to preserve your freedom of choice concerning this issue. Tim Douglas, another long time contributor to this news group came up with one of many possible great suggestions. Its suggests an avenue to take that may make this pill not so bitter.. His post was the first that I recall reading that has actually has gone past the stage of public out cry about ones rights or freedoms of choice being compromised by this situation. In a nut shell he said, ask that the proposal to be modified so that the SawStop only be mandated for schools and small shops with 5 or more employees. This would most likely be well received by students and their instructors and the employees of shops that profit enough to have 5 or more employees. Those of us that do not fall in that group would still be free to choose a table saw with or with out a SawStop. This suggestion may not work but it certainly gives those that oppose the SawStop petition a compromise that is more palatable to the Saw Stop company than simply sending in an opposing petition. They have a big investment in time and money in their product and they apparently do what they do, well, as they have gotten this far in so many years. While this will not be a cake walk for them, they seem prepared for the long haul but would probably welcome suggestions that are more fare to both us and them. So far they are either getting great praise or great opposition and probably no suggestions for compromise. Several magazine have praised their endeavor. Tim has submitted to this group one idea for compromise, lets see who may have another suggestion. In closing, freedom is an invaluable privilege that is easily lost if not fought for and guarded. For those of us that feel this way, remember that freedom of choice comes with a cost. If we truly feel that the SawStop mandate will restrict our freedom of choice then we have to do something constructive and not just moan and groan and sit back and watch that freedom be taken away from us. Arguing among ourselves ain't gunna get it. Go to the bargaining table and make suggestions. Go to the bargaining table with the willingness to compromise on some details or issues. Go to the bargaining table and be a respectful and "truly knowledgeable" representative of your fellow wood workers with offers that SawStop would be interested in.
I have respectfully teed the ball up for you. Its now your shot.
Any non constructive comments need not be posted.
With great respect and admiration for this great group of wood workers I wish you all the good luck.
Leon
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Sorry Leon, I'm just not in the mood to read a book today.. After the first couple of paragraphs didn't say anything substantial, I gave up. Have you ever thought of starting a part time business? Something like "rent a philibuster" comes to mind.

Most
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in
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with
money
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take
cry
situation.
more
walk
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SawStop
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oops, filibuster.
wrote in message
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Leon, if you want to buy the g*dd*mn*d g*d*d*m sawstop then BUY the g*dd*mn*d g*d*d*m sawstop but if you start another g*dd*mn*d g*d*d*m sawstop thread I'm adding you to my g*dd*mn*d g*d*d*m sawstop kill file.
This is my first and only post on the subject.
djb
--
"Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy
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<another tyrade deleted>
My thoughts.... The SawStop will increase the cost of ALL table saws, whether it's been installed on the saw or not.
--- If installed, you'll pay for it.
--- If not installed, the manufacturers will be paying millions to defend themselves from injured users due to their "preventable accident", and pass the cost to the consumer.
Either way, I've got the last TS I'll ever need, so I don't care.
Mitch
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"If the SawStop proposal goes through and is approved by the government many of us have indicated that we are simply not going to purchase a tables saw as our way to protest the SawStop company and its tactics. "
Good thing I found that my RAS does everything I need a tablesaw to do. Come to the dark side with me
danh

Most
us
us
be
and
that
not
this
day
or
techniques,
to
to
of
stick
priorities.
in
out
like
our
hold
go
express
with
money
effective
to
have
take
cry
situation.
more
walk
either
SawStop
freedom
with
be
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The estimated cost to include this safety feature in a new saw is well under $100. I think you're moanly loudly about a small matter.
Do you refuse to buy a car because they have to come with brakes, brake lights, turn signals, and seatbelts?
You're also making a factual and logical error by deeming (paraphrase here of your statement) "my safety is a completely personal matter". If you cut your hand off with your tablesaw, and rush off to the hospital, part or all of the cost of fixing you is borne by other people with your health insurance plan, and/or taxpayers. This is strictly personal only if you live in a cabin somewhere and cauterize your own stump.
    -- Andy Barss
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Andrew, with open eyes you actually see the Whole Big Picture.

stump.
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What do you mean by "well under $100?" If you read the petition, SawStop says it would add less than 25% to the total cost of the saw. I don't know about you, but 25% is pretty significant. And as far as your moronic statement about safety being a "personal" matter, then let's get rid of Social Security, Medicare and Welfare. I don't want to be responsible for someone who is too stupid or incompetent to earn a living for himself or put money aside for retirement.
The petition states that an override switch will be available when cutting metal materials. Based on previous posts regarding the blade guard, wouldn't a lot of people just turn it off to avoid the possibility of a false fire deeming the device useless?
Here's my suggestion. How about requiring the saw manufacturers to provide some kind of "port" which allows for the later installation of a SawStop like device. That way, an individual can purchase the device independently of the saw if he wishes.
-Bill
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To inject facts into a good argument, in violation of hallowed USENET rules:
the actual claim was that SawStop "Would add less than $100 to the *WHOLESALE* cost of a table-saw."
To me, that appears to be only the added 'manufacturing cost', and *does*not* *include* the royalties payable to SawStop. Add another 8% to the wholesale price.

Yawp. circa 25% increase in wholesale cost for a PM66 or Unisaw equivalent.
I'd expect a circa $500 contractor saw to get bumped to the $750 range A BT3100 to jump to over $500, and 'bargian basement' tabletop saws to *triple* in price -- from circa $100 to circa $300, *if* a 'direct drive' design can utilize the protective device. I wouldn't be surprised if activation of a sawstop in a direct-drive saw _totally_ ruined the saw.
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Yes, the health care cost is shared, to an extent.
* But, it ain't the government's job to protect me from everything. *
As another poster showed, the incident of table saw accidents is small in comparsion to numerous other activities that have greater potential to send you to the emergency room.
And yes, I did refuse to buy any car that had the automatic seat belts (though I do wear belts religiously).
Renata
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:25:54 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

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If our "government" requires the stupid thing I will purchase a foreign made or "made for sale outside the US" table saw.
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Larry states:

Go for it. Get a Yurpean model with a stub arbor.
Charlie Self
Facts are stupid things. Ronald Reagan
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And then try to import it.

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"Love story was about me an' Tipper." -Al Gore
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: "Love story was about me an' Tipper." : -Al Gore
If you want to know the truth about this (Gore never said this; and the male character was based on a composite of Gore and Tommy Lee Jones), look it up here:
http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/y2kelect/honest-al.html http://www.dailyhowler.com/h052500_1.shtml
Here's an actual, untruthful quote:
" Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."     - George W. Bush
    -- Andy Barss
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