Temperature Related Finishing Problem???

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So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100 degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes, oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....
I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut immediately turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell, Linseed Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these finishes in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of that sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an issue (i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a warm finishing area without acclimation)?
Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just to make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back I got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm suddently seeing.
Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Brian.
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Well if you are using Black Walnut, some of it does have black streaks. Will plain water do the same to the same piece of wood? If so, your wood has that coloring. Most finishes do have a temperature range that they ideally should be used at but normally that has more to do with getting an even finish or for proper curing.
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It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and the new ones that didn't.
Brian.

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Try the water test on a piece of scrap also.

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Mineral spirits aren't black.
Brian.

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Brian wrote:

Peruvian Walnut is much darker than American Black Walnut. An oil based finish will further darken it. I don't think the temperature or humidity have anything to do with the coloration. As Larry suggested try shellac or lacquer.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
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From all the bits and pieces I've heard, this sounds like the best (and simplest) explanation. I don't think he replied when I asked if the test pieces were actually from the same board. GerryG

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Have you tried just thinner (mineral spirits) or naphtha? I have a feeling they will do the same. Has the wood been exposed to direct sunlight? If not, is it humid there? I'm thinking trying a bleach wash then rinse, dry and try again.
I assume the prior samples were from the same board, of course.
I'm in similar weather (southern Utah). I don't see the abrupt temp change doing anything to the finish. As for 100 deg, you can expect problems with any finish that normally dries quickly. I do most finishing very early in the day, where it's in the 70's.
GerryG

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You've brought a cold substance into contact with a warm substance and created condensation.
Allow the finish to come to the temperature of the material to be finished and try again.
Regards, Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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Mineral spirits look clear. No humidity here. Dry heat. I suspect Tom's answer is "the" answer.
Brian.
wrote:

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Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that, not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the finish coming out of a spray gun? Sorta cool, maybe, but never a problem (but there's always a first time). In any case, this one sounds interesting. I'm in about the same temp range. If nothing else turns up, I'll try the same with some walnut. GerryG

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wrote:
|Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that, |not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the |finish coming out of a spray gun?
If it's a HVLP during the summer in Tucson, it's not cool [g]. I've pretty much settled on shellac and Enduro WB coatings and these dry *really* fast when I spray outside (my normal routine). I have at times put the spray gun in the fridge for a bit before spraying and haven't seen any problems (so far).
Of course where I live, dust is a major problem, so fast drying has its advantages. I can't imagine using a finish that takes hours to dry.
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Wes, I also use Enduro products. I just got my first can of "Flat". To date I've only used Semi-Gloss and Satin. Have you gotten good clarity by spraying ONLY Satin or Flat? I typically apply a gloss or semi-gloss product to a project, and then apply the final sheen as the last coat. CompliantSpray systems folks swear that it isn't necessary to apply gloss coats for clarity under Satin or Flat.
The humidity in my shop is usually in the 50-60% range and when I spray it's usually in the 70's or 80's. I LOVE the quick drying too! I've had no appreciable problem with dust on any projects so far and I make only a quick attempt to reduce dust in the shop before spraying. I even leave the doors open during and after spraying.
David
Wes Stewart wrote:

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|Wes, I also use Enduro products. I just got my first can of |"Flat". To date I've only used Semi-Gloss and Satin. Have |you gotten good clarity by spraying ONLY Satin or Flat? I |typically apply a gloss or semi-gloss product to a project, |and then apply the final sheen as the last coat. |CompliantSpray systems folks swear that it isn't necessary |to apply gloss coats for clarity under Satin or Flat.
David,
I'll confess that I'm fairly new to using their products and to date have stuck with semi-gloss only. I have used multiple coats and to my (maybe uncritical) eye anyway, the clarity has been good. I haven't built anything that required a high gloss finish, so the semi suits my needs. I've been using one or two coats of their sanding sealer and then multiple coats of semi, sanding or using a gray pad between all but the last coat.
I'm confessing too some naivet about alcohol resistance. I thought that there would be some. Wrong. I used some Gorilla glue in the carcass of a bath vanity I'm building. I wiped up some squeeze out with alcohol and there went my finish. Fortunately it was inside the area where a bank of drawers is going so it won't show.
I'm planning to shoot a final coat with their crosslink additive to improve this characteristic (I'm not looking forward to this for reasons stated below).
| |The humidity in my shop is usually in the 50-60% range and |when I spray it's usually in the 70's or 80's. I LOVE the |quick drying too! I've had no appreciable problem with dust |on any projects so far and I make only a quick attempt to |reduce dust in the shop before spraying. I even leave the |doors open during and after spraying.
I've decided to not spray indoors, primarily for health reasons. It would have been my sister's 54th birthday today, had she not died a horrible death from lung cancer 21 years ago. I partly attribute this to her involvement with furniture refinishing and too cavalier use of the associated chemicals without appropriate precautions. I'm trying to not make the same mistakes.
Lois at Compliant Systems has urged extreme caution with the crosslinked product and I intend to pay attention.
Fortunately, the weather here most of the year is such that I can get away with this. Since I'm not making my living with this stuff, if I can't finish outside, I can do something else.
Wes
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Wes,
I'm still wondering what's in the Crosslinker. I have used it and Lois had told me that it isn't as hazardous as some other catalysts. Did you she give you any idea what's in the Crosslinker? I've tried to find out more about it and have come up empty-handed. I DO wear a respirator when mixing in the Crosslinker or when ever I spray any Enduro product. I hope this stuff isn't gonna lead to some dreadful medical problem! :)
I found that leaving a damp glass on top of Enduro coatings for many hours will compromise the finish. I haven't made any tests on Crosslinked finishes yet.
I generally use one coat of sealer, followed by 3 lightly sanded topcoats. The last project ended up looking too "plastic" so I cut the finish back with gray, maroon and white pads. That gave a nice soft luster and got rid of the dreaded plastic look. I guess I applied too-heavy coats.
What are you spraying with? Forgive me if you've already mentioned that recently; my memory is the pits!
I use an Accuspray #10 w/ .043 tip and #9 cap for the Enduro. Just got me a #5, #6, .028 and .036 for finer control of spraying dye stains and other products. The #5 cap and .028 works GREAT for WB dye stains.
David
Wes Stewart wrote:

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David,
| |I'm still wondering what's in the Crosslinker. I have used |it and Lois had told me that it isn't as hazardous as some |other catalysts. Did you she give you any idea what's in |the Crosslinker?
Haven't a clue. If I was still employed I could take a sample to one of my chemist friends and find out.
|I've tried to find out more about it and |have come up empty-handed. I DO wear a respirator when |mixing in the Crosslinker or when ever I spray any Enduro |product. I hope this stuff isn't gonna lead to some |dreadful medical problem! :)
Maybe I got the wrong impression about the hazard level, but she made it very clear that I should wear an active carbon filter mask (I always do) and wear gloves (do that too). She even included the gloves, so I take it that it's important to wear them. Better safe than sorry. But if we're not breathing it in, not getting it in the eyes and not absorbing it through the skin, I think we're okay.
| |I found that leaving a damp glass on top of Enduro coatings |for many hours will compromise the finish. I haven't made |any tests on Crosslinked finishes yet.
Well hurry up and report back here. [g]
| |I generally use one coat of sealer, followed by 3 lightly |sanded topcoats. The last project ended up looking too |"plastic" so I cut the finish back with gray, maroon and |white pads. That gave a nice soft luster and got rid of the |dreaded plastic look. I guess I applied too-heavy coats.
Could be. I often use their conditioner (tempted to try distilled water) to get better flow with lighter coats. | |What are you spraying with? Forgive me if you've already |mentioned that recently; my memory is the pits!
I'm using a Wagner 2600 "Softspray" HVLP rated at 6psi @70 cfm and a non-bleeder gun. I based this choice on the article in FWW, since I was without much experience in this area. This gun comes with a 1.3mm (0.05") tip and until very recently I couldn't locate a source for different sizes. I now know that gleempaint has them but I have yet to buy a smaller one. I seem to be able to fiddlefart around and get decent spray characteristics, although I think I'm probably wasting some material. (Another reason to be outside)
Some question the use of aluminum parts with water but I haven't seen it as an issue.
Wes
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wrote:

I took my clue from his description of the environment as having ambient air temperatures of up to one hundred and even more in his garage, where the wood is stored.
Let's say that the air in the garage is 110F.
The relative humidity would only have to be a bit more than 35% for the 78F material to describe the dew point.
http://www.lamtec.com/dew-point-calculator.htm
This doesn't even take into consideration the microclimate conditions at the surface of the wood due to the moisture that is contributed by the wood itself.
http://www.lib.kth.se/Sammanfattningar/rosenkilde021218.pdf
As you say, it is interesting.
Regards, Tom.
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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Tom, Agreed; you may be right. Of course we don't know just where he's at. I'm now at 95F, but with a relative humidity of 14%, and dew point about 38F. The black is also curious, as opposed to a white haze that I've seen water cause. GerryG

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According to the weather channel, I'm at 33% relative humidity, with a current temperature of 84F. Due to be 101F today.
Brian.

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Christ is in our midst.
God Bless you and yours Brian,
I live in the North Western part of North Carolina where the Heat and the Humidity really does a number on Finishes.. I never use Stains and about all I use to seal the wood is Clear Gloss or Satin Polyurethane and still have problems with it drying.. Now I must wait till the Humidity is below 65% before I even consider Sealing anything.
I also wipe everything I do down with Mineral Spirits which gives me a pretty good idea as to what it is going to look like.. I would not suggest water because it can soak into your wood and cause major problems after the Finish has dried, but the Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner) will evaporate leaving the woods moisture content as it was when you started and will not cause problems with the finish.
So.. Forget the water and use the Mineral Spirits to get an idea of the color the wood is before you apply your seal and wait till the Humidity is between 60% and 65% before you apply your Wood Seal.
God Bless, Michael
www.cedar-art.com

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