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I lost my car. I had a 2002 Cavalier Z-24 2 door coupe with 5 speed manual that got 28 city and 30 highway. It had the torque to go up the mountains on the West Virginia turnpike at 70 and not bog down, as today's Automobiles.
It got total last Thursday, and I have been looking for a replacement.
There is no car to replace it. All are larger, have less power, weigh more and get less gas mileage. Is that what the liberal have been talking about for the last 10 years when they say they are improving the American Automobiles?
PS I had just driven through West Virgina turnpike the day before the wreck, and watch today's cars bog down about 10 to 16 mph going up the hills.
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On 05/07/2012 08:54 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

that got 28 city and 30 highway. It had the torque to go up the mountains on the West Virginia turnpike at 70 and not bog down, as today's Automobiles.

get less gas mileage. Is that what the liberal have been talking about for the last 10 years when they say they are improving the American Automobiles?

<DeLurk>
Keith -
I used to travel extensively and rented cars all over the US and Europe. Now, rental cars are the most abused cars on the planet so you can tell pretty quickly what brands hold up. For my money, the Honda Accord is the best car (made in the US, BTW) in the category. I have driven both the 4- and 6-cylinder models, and owned the V6. They are superbly screwed together, run like a top, and with 20K rental miles on them, they still were rattle free and ran fine.
BTW, the only difference I noticed between the 4- and 6-cylinder models was the kick getting from 0-60. Around town and at highway speeds, I found them remarkably similar. So, if mileage is an issue, I would not hesitate to recommend the 4.
<ReLurk>
P.S. We've also owned several Acuras - Honda's luxury brand. They are also terrific, though at a higher price point.
--
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Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com
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On 5/7/2012 8:54 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

My son has a similar equipped 05 Cavalier which he got new. He gets 39 mgh in the highway and 32 in town.
Anyway good car for an entry level vehicle.
If you want reliable and several steps up and still affordable look at Honda and Toyota.
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On Mon, 07 May 2012 21:54:19 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:

You should be able to find another 2002 Cavalier around someplace. Might take a bit of looking, but sure there are some out there. 2002 is not really that old. Not as old as the 1967-69 Celica ST that I have been looking for.
Paul T.
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On Mon, 07 May 2012 21:54:19 -0400, Keith Nuttle

Sorry to hear about your car totaled, but thee are plenty that can replace it.
My Sonata V-6 gets that mileage and with 250 HP has plenty of zip. I just got back from a 2400 mile vacation and averaged 28 mpg with speeds up to 85 mph. Some flat, some hilly. Far more comfortable that a Cavalier and easier to get in and out of.
I've driven cars in Europe (Smart Forfor, Citroen CV-4) that could out run a Cavalier and got over 40 mpg and climbed very steep hills.
Those car bogging down on hills are driver inattention. They have to push on the right pedal to make it go faster.
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On Mon, 07 May 2012 23:17:19 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Agreed. We took a trip through the Canadian Rockies a few years back and even on the steepest grades I could maintain 40-50 miles per hour in a 4 cylinder, non-turbo 2006 PT Cruiser.
Got about 29mpg doing it as well - I was surprised as around town is about 18-19.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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On 5/8/2012 12:56 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

That is exactly what I am trying to avoid in the next car I buy. The car I lost (Since my original post I was informed it was totaled) could maintain 70 mph in the steepest part of the mountains. Even my Chevy Astro van can maintain 60 pulling a boat in that same stretch of highway and still get 18 to 19 mpg.
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On Thu, 10 May 2012 12:59:16 -0400, knuttle wrote:

Our old '91 Astrovan got 15mpg. City, highway, prairie, or mountain. Never towed with it. You're either lucky or optimistic.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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On 5/10/2012 1:07 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I have a 2005 Astro the last of the line. I have a book in the glove compartment where I record every fill-up and all service.
I was disappointed as my 1994 Safari GMC Van got better than that. I was compulsive then and recorded everything then.
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On 5/10/2012 11:59 AM, knuttle wrote:

Part of the reason that your vehicle did so well in the mountains compared to other vehicles is the computer fuel mixture setting. Vehicles originally sold to customers in mountainous regions have different proms in the computer and or different jets in the carbonated cars. It is a matter of having that adjustment made for the higher altitudes.
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On 5/10/2012 3:37 PM, Leon wrote: ...

OP was talking about WVA mountains for Pete's sake. There isn't a point over about 3400 ft on I-77. The tallest point in the state can't be 5000.
We're 2900 ft here in W KS w/ the western edge of the state at 3500 to nearly 4000. Hardly "high elevation".
--


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On 5/10/2012 4:05 PM, dpb wrote:

Try to keep up. :!) I responded to him on his response to Larry mentioning the Canadian Rockies. Those are more than foot hills.
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On 5/10/2012 5:05 PM, dpb wrote:

When driving in the mountains it is not necessarily the elevation but the grade. Given elevation effects the fuel ratios as the air is thinner.
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On 5/10/2012 1:37 PM, Leon wrote:

is that true? people buy cars in one place and move to another all the time. dealers move cars around between dealers, and i'd be amazed that they swap proms.
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On 5/10/2012 4:39 PM, chaniarts wrote: ...

I think not any more, anyway; perhaps there was a time in the early introduction of computer-controlled ignitions when there were some changes. The only ones I'm aware of had to do w/ places like CA w/ specific emission controls requirements, though.
In the olden days of carbureted engines it was necessary to readjust idle for high elevations but that wouldn't really be terribly necessary until above 6000 ft or higher and then generally only for permanent change in locale; rarely couldn't "get by" w/o it. Of course, if you're starting from even lower, the change is greater.
I can recall many, many years ago driving w/ parents to the top of Mt Evans, CO, (nearly 14000 ft) and in the parking lot there the car had so little power it could barely back itself out of a parking spot in a nearly level lot.
<http://www.mountevans.com/
BTW, really cool place; take the time to do it if you're ever in the area--well worth it.
--
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On 5/10/2012 5:52 PM, dpb wrote:

I have been out of the automotive business for q20 or so years but there are still plenty of cars that need that adjustment.

Idle had nothing to do with it. The vehicles idled just fine, fuel mixtures were changed with jet exchanges and or prom changes, if you wanted to remedy the situation.

Been there done that, but Rockey Mountain NP.
My favorite place is between Silverton and Ouray.
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On 5/10/2012 7:25 PM, Leon wrote: ...

Indeed; I can't believe I wrote that; certainly wasn't what was intended.
I've not found any reference to dealer-swap PROMs for curing altitude sickness which makes me think it isn't/wasn't the common cure.
I recall working on some of the GM MC6809 firmware while still at uni for the SAE competition and there were some data tables already stored in there that were switchable if need be by a software machination but no PROM switch. That was clear back in the late 60s; can't imagine it didn't get much more sophisticated than that very quickly and leave the actual need to swap anything out behind ages ago...
Carbs may have had jets changed out if mixture couldn't compensate enough...
--
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On 5/10/2012 8:07 PM, dpb wrote:

Well to give you some credit, when switching out jets it is not much much more effort to adjust the idle while you have the sir cleaner off.

I am/was refering to the early to mid 80's when computers were first widely used in most all GM vehicles. I was the parts manager and later the service sales manager for an Olds dealer in the 80's, prom swaps was not at all uncommon. There was basically no reprogramming going on in the dealerships other than changing the prom and or resetting the ECM. There were location specific factory bulletins that indicated a prom swap if the vehicle was not normally operated in a location that it was originally shipped to.
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On 5/10/2012 6:25 PM, Leon wrote:

On US-550 over Red Mountain pass pulling a 27' travel trailer with a 2009 Ford F250 Super Duty.
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Just adjusting the idle MIXTURE could often get you by - it richens the bottom end enough to make the engine run and resond better, but does not get the full power back at higher speeds.

Pulled 17 foot Bonair to the west coast with 3.0 liter Aerostar, never below 50mph even on 4th of july pass, or is it called independence pass - can't remember. LONG STEEP SUCKER!!!!
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