Selling items made from mag plans

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I've got an interesting question that I have been thinking about for a little while. I have built a piece from plans I got from a woodworking mag for myself. I also made the same thing as a wedding gift. The couple liked it so much that they said they would tell a few people about them and they may have a few orders for me.
Now the question. Is it permissible to make money of a plan from a mag? Do they retain some sort of copyright on anything made from those plans? I think I have the potential to make a few bucks here but I don't want to without checking on the ethics.
Thanks for all replies,
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are you serious?????

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Just read around-about the article to see if there is a copyright infringement concerning the "business production" of the object. even then if you're not legaly in business with it like a few here and there, no big deal at all, go ahead!
Alex
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I've purchased plans from independent sources that have restrictions. Usually, the plans are for personal use only, nothing made from them can be sold. Some offer licensing though for commercial use.
I've never seen a restriction on a magazine plan. The plan itself, of course, is copyrighted and cannot be reproduced or sold. Given that no restrictions are published, I'd say you are good to go. Just remember that I'm not a lawyer, just using what I think is common sense.
Refreshing to see an ethics concern about copyright.
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Bill & Ed,

I was curious so I emailed SWMBO (who is a lawyer):
Subject: Stupid Question - not important
Chrissy, I was curious. If I make an item from a plan that I got out of a magazine, like a rocking horse, is there any problem in selling them. There was no clauses specifying whether or not you are allowed to sell an item, just that the plan itself is copyrighted. 4
Her response
Are you going into business? Copyright would not preclude you from selling.
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Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 8:47am (EDT-3) snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net (WoodChuck34) <snip> Her response Are you going into business? Copyright would not preclude you from selling.
No, and stealing something wouldn't preclude you from selling it either; but, it wouldn't be right.
So, if the guy gets caught selling stuff he made, but has no legal right to do so, he can cite her as his authority to do so?
JOAT You have to kill pessimists, but optimists do it themselves.
MUPPET SHOW THEME http://www.muppetsonline.com/midi/muppets.mid
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This question has come up before. I believe that one of the magazines, (Wood, I believe), had covered this before. They often will publish a design from an "outsider", that is someone not on staff. Those designs are protected. Others are not (other then normal copyright for the plans themselves and the article itself). So, no selling the items if they are done by the "outsider".
Here's my two cents - most of this is probably under the "radar" - that is if you're doing the local craft show in 'somewhereville' USA, no one would notice. So you could always feign ignorance if caught. A national show - now there's where you will have a problem.
To keep the "karma" god in check - I'd take the time and write or email the magazine and ask them their policy. I would guarantee that they will respond quickly. You might be surprised about the response.
You would do us all a favor if you would publish that response, so we would all can benefit.
Good luck,
MJ Wallace
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OH, boy! You *do* like to ask complicated questions.
The _first_ thing to to is to check what the plans themselves say. Many plans come with an express 'limited license', allowing you to construct a limited number of the object -- might be one only, might be five, might be as many as 25 -- for your own purposes. *IF* there is such a statement, it _does_ govern what you can/cannot do.
If there is no such 'license' with the plans, then the 'statutory' provisions apply.
This gets "messy".
The plans, themselves, _are_ copyrighted. Copying the plans for your own 'personal use' is allowed. Copying the plans for 'someone else' to use is not.
Building the thing represented by the plans is considered a 'derivative work'. Which does fall under the purview of copyright law. Absent any other considerations, O.K. for personal use, *not* O.K. to give/sell to others. Immediately after construction, _or_ 'later'. Needs to remain in your possession, or be destroyed. The single exception, if you transfer ownership of the 'original' of the plans from which it was built, the 'derivative work' objects must be destroyed, *OR* be transferred to the same party -- at _no_ cost.
HOWEVER, general copyright law protects the 'expression' of a given idea, _not_ the underlying 'ideas' themselves. And, copyright protects _only_ the 'unique' creative elements introduced by the author of the particular 'expression'. There is a separate kind of copyright, called a 'design copyright', that plays by different rules. However, unless you're talking about a 'design' that is 'identifiable' as being from some well-known artist -- e.g. a Sam Maloof rocking chair -- it is unlikely that this category of copyright comes into play.
Separating the 'ideas' from the 'expression', is one of the *murkiest* areas of copyright law, =particularly= where a 'derivative work' is involved.
Design elements that are 'common' to any similar object, are obviously not unique to that particular 'expression' of the concept of whatever kind of object is represented by the plans. The manner/style in which those various elements are _combined_ to make up the whole, on the other hand, _may_ well be a 'unique' creative effort, and thus be protected.
Trying to get an 'authoritative' answer as to what are the 'unique' elements in any specific set of plans, is likely to be impossible.
A couple of examples, taken from some woodworking magazines within the last year or so: 1) plans for a intarsia teddy bear. 2) plans for decorative boxes.
The intarsia teddy bear is almost entirely 'unique' creative effort. The only 'non-unique' component is the 'intarsia' concept itself. The copyright on the teddy-bear object doesn't extend to a, say, intarsia monkey object, nor even to a 'different appearing' teddy bear.
In the 2nd case, obviously copyright doesn't apply to boxes as a whole. The only (potentially) 'unique' element in these plans was the 'mitered spline' accent used in joining the box corners. Even then, if a similar appearance was accomplished by a different methodology than espoused in the accompanying article, copyright does not come into consideration. Furthermore, with the 'unique' element being the -method- of constructing the accent, as separate from the 'accent' itself, copyright is side-stepped, because copyright does *not* apply to processes or methods (that is the realm of 'patents').
How any/all of this swamp applies to 'whatever it is' that you have made is a question _only_you_ can attempt to answer.
As a 'practical matter', it is *highly* unlikely that a copyright owner would act against you for anything less than 'production line' quantities, unless we're talking 'big ticket' item construction. plans for a decorative weather-vane are one thing. Plans for a house, or a boat, or an airplane, are something else again. <grin>
The 'ethics' of the situation are a completely different matter from the 'legalities'.
Ethically, it's clearly OK to make the thing for your own 'personal use'. Or in _small_ numbers for gifts to others. What constitutes a 'small' number does depend on what the 'thing' is.
The situation is different when you start talking about taking money for the things. Obviously, setting up a production-line, and wholesaling them, to say Toys-R-Us or K-Mart, is an entirely different issue than "onesie-twosie" construction for individuals who ask you for one. _IF_ there is 'money to be made' in it, then the producer of the plans deserves to share in those profits. Consider buying a set of plans for _each_ copy you make. You can then transfer the plans _and_ the 'derivative work' to each buyer. Alternatively, contact the producer of the plan, and see if there is a 'quantity discount' available.
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http://www.starcase.com/rack_rail_universal_online_store.asp
wrote: : >I've got an interesting question that I have been thinking about for a : >little while. I have built a piece from plans I got from a woodworking : >mag for myself. I also made the same thing as a wedding gift. The : >couple liked it so much that they said they would tell a few people about : >them and they may have a few orders for me. : > : >Now the question. Is it permissible to make money of a plan from a mag? : >Do they retain some sort of copyright on anything made from those plans? : >I think I have the potential to make a few bucks here but I don't want to : >without checking on the ethics. : > : >Thanks for all replies, : > : : OH, boy! You *do* like to ask complicated questions. : : The _first_ thing to to is to check what the plans themselves say. : Many plans come with an express 'limited license', allowing you to : construct a limited number of the object -- might be one only, might : be five, might be as many as 25 -- for your own purposes. *IF* there : is such a statement, it _does_ govern what you can/cannot do. : : If there is no such 'license' with the plans, then the 'statutory' : provisions apply. : : This gets "messy". : : The plans, themselves, _are_ copyrighted. Copying the plans for your own : 'personal use' is allowed. Copying the plans for 'someone else' to use : is not. : : Building the thing represented by the plans is considered a 'derivative : work'. Which does fall under the purview of copyright law. Absent any : other considerations, O.K. for personal use, *not* O.K. to give/sell to : others. Immediately after construction, _or_ 'later'. Needs to remain : in your possession, or be destroyed. The single exception, if you transfer : ownership of the 'original' of the plans from which it was built, the : 'derivative work' objects must be destroyed, *OR* be transferred to the : same party -- at _no_ cost. : : HOWEVER, general copyright law protects the 'expression' of a given idea, : _not_ the underlying 'ideas' themselves. And, copyright protects _only_ : the 'unique' creative elements introduced by the author of the particular : 'expression'. There is a separate kind of copyright, called a 'design : copyright', that plays by different rules. However, unless you're talking : about a 'design' that is 'identifiable' as being from some well-known : artist -- e.g. a Sam Maloof rocking chair -- it is unlikely that this : category of copyright comes into play. : : Separating the 'ideas' from the 'expression', is one of the *murkiest* areas : of copyright law, =particularly= where a 'derivative work' is involved. : : Design elements that are 'common' to any similar object, are obviously : not unique to that particular 'expression' of the concept of whatever : kind of object is represented by the plans. The manner/style in which : those various elements are _combined_ to make up the whole, on the other : hand, _may_ well be a 'unique' creative effort, and thus be protected. : : Trying to get an 'authoritative' answer as to what are the 'unique' : elements in any specific set of plans, is likely to be impossible. : : A couple of examples, taken from some woodworking magazines within : the last year or so: 1) plans for a intarsia teddy bear. 2) plans : for decorative boxes. : : The intarsia teddy bear is almost entirely 'unique' creative effort. : The only 'non-unique' component is the 'intarsia' concept itself. : The copyright on the teddy-bear object doesn't extend to a, say, : intarsia monkey object, nor even to a 'different appearing' teddy bear. : : In the 2nd case, obviously copyright doesn't apply to boxes as a whole. : The only (potentially) 'unique' element in these plans was the 'mitered : spline' accent used in joining the box corners. Even then, if a similar : appearance was accomplished by a different methodology than espoused in : the accompanying article, copyright does not come into consideration. : Furthermore, with the 'unique' element being the -method- of constructing : the accent, as separate from the 'accent' itself, copyright is side-stepped, : because copyright does *not* apply to processes or methods (that is the : realm of 'patents'). : : How any/all of this swamp applies to 'whatever it is' that you have made : is a question _only_you_ can attempt to answer. : : As a 'practical matter', it is *highly* unlikely that a copyright owner : would act against you for anything less than 'production line' quantities, : unless we're talking 'big ticket' item construction. plans for a decorative : weather-vane are one thing. Plans for a house, or a boat, or an airplane, : are something else again. <grin> : : The 'ethics' of the situation are a completely different matter from the : 'legalities'. : : Ethically, it's clearly OK to make the thing for your own 'personal use'. : Or in _small_ numbers for gifts to others. What constitutes a 'small' : number does depend on what the 'thing' is. : : The situation is different when you start talking about taking money : for the things. Obviously, setting up a production-line, and wholesaling : them, to say Toys-R-Us or K-Mart, is an entirely different issue than : "onesie-twosie" construction for individuals who ask you for one. _IF_ : there is 'money to be made' in it, then the producer of the plans deserves : to share in those profits. Consider buying a set of plans for _each_ : copy you make. You can then transfer the plans _and_ the 'derivative : work' to each buyer. Alternatively, contact the producer of the plan, : and see if there is a 'quantity discount' available. : : : : : :
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Reply to wrong message, sorry...
wrote: : : >I've got an interesting question that I have been thinking about for a : : >little while. I have built a piece from plans I got from a woodworking : : >mag for myself. I also made the same thing as a wedding gift. The : : >couple liked it so much that they said they would tell a few people about : : >them and they may have a few orders for me. : : > : : >Now the question. Is it permissible to make money of a plan from a mag? : : >Do they retain some sort of copyright on anything made from those plans? : : >I think I have the potential to make a few bucks here but I don't want to : : >without checking on the ethics. : : > : : >Thanks for all replies, : : > : : : : OH, boy! You *do* like to ask complicated questions. : : : : The _first_ thing to to is to check what the plans themselves say. : : Many plans come with an express 'limited license', allowing you to : : construct a limited number of the object -- might be one only, might : : be five, might be as many as 25 -- for your own purposes. *IF* there : : is such a statement, it _does_ govern what you can/cannot do. : : : : If there is no such 'license' with the plans, then the 'statutory' : : provisions apply. : : : : This gets "messy". : : : : The plans, themselves, _are_ copyrighted. Copying the plans for your own : : 'personal use' is allowed. Copying the plans for 'someone else' to use : : is not. : : : : Building the thing represented by the plans is considered a 'derivative : : work'. Which does fall under the purview of copyright law. Absent any : : other considerations, O.K. for personal use, *not* O.K. to give/sell to : : others. Immediately after construction, _or_ 'later'. Needs to remain : : in your possession, or be destroyed. The single exception, if you transfer : : ownership of the 'original' of the plans from which it was built, the : : 'derivative work' objects must be destroyed, *OR* be transferred to the : : same party -- at _no_ cost. : : : : HOWEVER, general copyright law protects the 'expression' of a given idea, : : _not_ the underlying 'ideas' themselves. And, copyright protects _only_ : : the 'unique' creative elements introduced by the author of the particular : : 'expression'. There is a separate kind of copyright, called a 'design : : copyright', that plays by different rules. However, unless you're talking : : about a 'design' that is 'identifiable' as being from some well-known : : artist -- e.g. a Sam Maloof rocking chair -- it is unlikely that this : : category of copyright comes into play. : : : : Separating the 'ideas' from the 'expression', is one of the *murkiest* areas : : of copyright law, =particularly= where a 'derivative work' is involved. : : : : Design elements that are 'common' to any similar object, are obviously : : not unique to that particular 'expression' of the concept of whatever : : kind of object is represented by the plans. The manner/style in which : : those various elements are _combined_ to make up the whole, on the other : : hand, _may_ well be a 'unique' creative effort, and thus be protected. : : : : Trying to get an 'authoritative' answer as to what are the 'unique' : : elements in any specific set of plans, is likely to be impossible. : : : : A couple of examples, taken from some woodworking magazines within : : the last year or so: 1) plans for a intarsia teddy bear. 2) plans : : for decorative boxes. : : : : The intarsia teddy bear is almost entirely 'unique' creative effort. : : The only 'non-unique' component is the 'intarsia' concept itself. : : The copyright on the teddy-bear object doesn't extend to a, say, : : intarsia monkey object, nor even to a 'different appearing' teddy bear. : : : : In the 2nd case, obviously copyright doesn't apply to boxes as a whole. : : The only (potentially) 'unique' element in these plans was the 'mitered : : spline' accent used in joining the box corners. Even then, if a similar : : appearance was accomplished by a different methodology than espoused in : : the accompanying article, copyright does not come into consideration. : : Furthermore, with the 'unique' element being the -method- of constructing : : the accent, as separate from the 'accent' itself, copyright is side-stepped, : : because copyright does *not* apply to processes or methods (that is the : : realm of 'patents'). : : : : How any/all of this swamp applies to 'whatever it is' that you have made : : is a question _only_you_ can attempt to answer. : : : : As a 'practical matter', it is *highly* unlikely that a copyright owner : : would act against you for anything less than 'production line' quantities, : : unless we're talking 'big ticket' item construction. plans for a decorative : : weather-vane are one thing. Plans for a house, or a boat, or an airplane, : : are something else again. <grin> : : : : The 'ethics' of the situation are a completely different matter from the : : 'legalities'. : : : : Ethically, it's clearly OK to make the thing for your own 'personal use'. : : Or in _small_ numbers for gifts to others. What constitutes a 'small' : : number does depend on what the 'thing' is. : : : : The situation is different when you start talking about taking money : : for the things. Obviously, setting up a production-line, and wholesaling : : them, to say Toys-R-Us or K-Mart, is an entirely different issue than : : "onesie-twosie" construction for individuals who ask you for one. _IF_ : : there is 'money to be made' in it, then the producer of the plans deserves : : to share in those profits. Consider buying a set of plans for _each_ : : copy you make. You can then transfer the plans _and_ the 'derivative : : work' to each buyer. Alternatively, contact the producer of the plan, : : and see if there is a 'quantity discount' available. : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
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snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com says...

Now that's a method I'd never thought of. Anyone think it wouldn't work?
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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That approach _has_ been before the courts, and passed muster.
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Robert Bonomi writes:

I have loved this one for some time. What does that say about all the articles, and books, with projects meant as gifts?
Somewhere, I've also seen plans touted as showing the "ideal sales item for craft fairs".
It is fun, playing with copyright legalities. But as someone else suggested, it's best if he just emails the magazine and asks if it's OK.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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I repeat: "Absent any other considerations...". <grin>
If the copyright owner 'permits' certain kinds of use _that_he_has_the_right_ _to_restrict_, that *is* the copyright owner's prerogative to so do.
If the copyright owner is silent on the subject, then 'copying' for a "gift" *is* a technical infringement of the copyright owner's rights.
There are things which you can do, *without* the permission of the copyright owner, and even 'over the express objections' of that party.
There are other things which one can do, 'if and only if' one has the consent and/or permission of the copyright holder. Such permission may be granted 'upon request', or there may be a blanket authorization in existence. When the copyright owner _suggests_ a use, and especially when they propose that use as a reason for the purchase of the item, courts _have_ held that that constitutes an 'implied license' to use the item in the manner suggested. That the seller _cannot_ then object that said use is an 'unauthorized use'.

Well, it's one thing if the copyright owner says it, in promotional materials for the book.
However, it's a totally different thing if it was a _reviewer_ saying it.
In the first case, it could be argued -- but I wouldn't want to guarantee that the argument would be _successful_ -- that that marketing constituted an 'implicit license' to use the materials in the manner suggested.
In the second case, the remark has _no_ 'legal' bearing on the status of infringement of the copyright of the plans and/or derivative works made therefrom.

You know, I even mentioned that, too, at the very end of the post. <grin>
_After_ discussing a bunch of reasons why, depending on the circumstances, there might be 'nothing of a copyright-able nature' in the parts of the original work (the plans) that the constructed object is a 'derivative work' of.
And, *IF* that is the case, then there really =isn't= any need, nor any benefit to be derived from, asking the magazine.
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:22:03 GMT, Bill

They may do.
You have no automatic right to use any of the design information or copyright plans from that magazine. Any rights you might happen to have are granted to you by the magazine, as a reader of that magazine. They get to set these rights - it's not a question of standard copyright law. Look at the terms of the specific licence they've granted you (it won't be too hard to find - magazines care deeply about this stuff).
Typically there will be a statement that you may use the plans for non-commercial use (it's hard to justify the magazine otherwise), and you may or may not use them commercially. But this varies, and no lawyer (armchair or otherwise) can make any comment without seeing the specifics.
--
Smert' spamionam

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Andy Dingley writes:

Maybe in Blighty they care, but I just went through 2 of the top woodworking magazines, from different viewpoints but both replete with projects, and could find no such notification. I figured at first it would be on or near the masthead, so I checked that. Then the back of the book. Then the advertising personnel list. Then the individual articles (I didn't reread them, but I checked in call out boxes, at the end, etc.). Wood and Woodwork.
Nary a sign of a terms of license or a list of do or don't needs for reproducing the plans included.

Couldn't even find that statement. It may be assumed by now, but it does strike me that some of the licensing should be specific...I know that some time ago, Popular Woodworking would allow copying of their articles for certain reasons, but did not allow copying of articles written for them by freelancers without going to the freelancer and asking. I don't know if this follows the same procedure, but, as before, the best bet is to simply email the editor concerned and ask. Beats the hell out of getting sued, even if the chance of such a suit is tiny.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:22:03 GMT, Bill
|I've got an interesting question that I have been thinking about for a |little while. I have built a piece from plans I got from a woodworking |mag for myself. I also made the same thing as a wedding gift. The |couple liked it so much that they said they would tell a few people about |them and they may have a few orders for me. | |Now the question. Is it permissible to make money of a plan from a mag? |Do they retain some sort of copyright on anything made from those plans? |I think I have the potential to make a few bucks here but I don't want to |without checking on the ethics. | |Thanks for all replies,
Thanks for thinking about the ethics of the situation. I've been ripped off more than once, but in the other direction. In one case, I wrote a paper that was published in an amateur radio magazine and the next thing I knew the publisher had started a kit company with my design offered as his first kit.
I think you've received some legal answers, but as a practical matter you probably can get away with it. I would look at it this way: will my building and selling these items injury the party that published the plans?
In my case above, I was nearly injured, because after publication, I received several hundred letters from people who wanted to duplicate my design and wanted to buy circuit boards for it. As a (what turned out to be non-profit) service to these folks I contracted to have a couple of hundred boards fabricated and my ability to recover my costs was jeopardized by this "alternate source." Fortunately I did just barely recover my outlay.
In your case, if the people selling plans don't lose business because you make a few widgits for sale, I don't think they would have a gripe.
As a parting thought, consider that once a week on public television, Nahm, does exactly what you're thinking about. He makes a copy of someone else's work and "sells" it for money to our friends at Delta/Porter Cable, Minwax, etc.
Wes
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Wes Stewart writes:

Uh, not exactly. I don't watch much TV, but the items Norm reproduces, that I've seen, would all be well out of copyright. And he, or someone with the show, usually has to develop his own plans from the old furniture.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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On 16 Aug 2004 18:49:09 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:
|Wes Stewart writes: | |> |>As a parting thought, consider that once a week on public television, |>Nahm, does exactly what you're thinking about. He makes a copy of |>someone else's work and "sells" it for money to our friends at |>Delta/Porter Cable, Minwax, etc. | |Uh, not exactly. I don't watch much TV, but the items Norm reproduces, that |I've seen, would all be well out of copyright. And he, or someone with the |show, usually has to develop his own plans from the old furniture.
Correct. "Exactly* was a poor choice of words. But the concept is certainly similar.
So I wonder how New Yankee would feel about someone buying and building from their "not quite an original idea" plans and selling the results?
| |Charlie Self |"Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The |Devil's Dictionary
We'll let you get away with this quote since the copyright has expired. [g]
But I wonder if it ever occurred to Ambrose Bierce, that in a given conversation, *he* might be the iconoclastic bore?
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Wes Stewart responds:

They own the plans and the copyright. I don't know, but I'd guess failing some statement showing not that they'd go after anyone caught like the hounds of hell. Of course, catching them is the challenge.
Charlie Self "Bore, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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