Long story short~ Remodeled basement for longtime friends, including tearing out of old paneling glued to cinder block walls, framed, drywalled, replaced windows, and hauled all the debris away. Said friends didn't even offer to buy my sandwich when they ordered out for lunch on several ocassions while I was slaving away in their basement. Have had too many similar experiences with others in the past year and have now decided not to do free work anymore. (I have a full time job not related to building, but am a very skilled carpenter/woodworker) So, "basement" friends want existing bathroom next to finished basement remodeled. I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do paid work for friends? I'd like to just charge a flat fee of what it's worth to me to even bother doing it...they want me to give them an hourly rate and an estimate of how much time it will take. What do you think? Thanks for any input. I am new here and I really appreciate this site.
I'm shocked. Define "friend". That's just plain rude. I had two buddies come over with circular saws and crowbars so the 3 of us could rip out 300 sq.ft. of the three layers of flooring in our liviingroom when we moved into our house. My wife went out and got a huge pile of food for the whole day, as well as a carload of beer to go with the power tools.
"woodpassion" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.homeimprovementbanter.com...
Don't do it. If you can't even agree on how to bill you will never agree on if it was done properly. If something goes wrong (and it will) you will wish you listened to me.
I think I would come up with an excuse as to why you aren't available to do the work for them at any price. Let them pay somebody who does it for a living and maybe the next time they'll come to appreciate the value of the work you've already done for them. I'm amazed you'd even consider doing anything for them at all. Are you a rug? You've sure as hell been walked over.
First time? Fine; it was a learning experience for you. But the next time? I guess you didn't learn.
I'd say this "friendship" is pretty one-sided from this story.
I'm with the others that it almost certainly will not be a good experience to try to do work for them as a contractor given their demonstrated miserliness is far more important to them than your value to them as a friend...
If you do decide to take it on, I suggest strongly you do it only on your terms with which you are comfortable as a "take it or leave it" choice and have a written contract of what is covered specifically as once it gets to be money, these people are going to be sticklers and friendship will have no bearing on it (other than using you as far as you will let them which they have already demonstrated. Of course, you so far having been an apparently willing accomplice.)
I definitely would not do it. Not to digress, but the work I do is a funny thing along these lines. I'm a systems/network engineer, and I'm sure there are a good many people out there that do similar work. For some reason people never have a problem asking me to "take a look at something weird their system is doing" while you are there for a social visit (dinner, drinks, etc). Of course, 4 hours later (min), it is all straightened out. This most would have probably cost them $100 to $200 dollars to get it done by somebody a LOT less qualified somewhere else. But other then a quick "oh thanks", there is little appreciation. Now, these same people would never ask plumber friend to fix the hot water heater or unclog the toilet. They wouldn't ask my wife (an RN) to look at a rash and treat it. Something about computer work, people just figure, "he'd love to fix it, he's a geek..."
Anyway, back to your deal, I agree with the other poster. Beg off on it and maybe recommend somebody (exxxxxxpeeeeensive) to do it. Perhaps they will see the error of their ways.
Just out of curiosity, what do these people do for work?
I'd be surprised you could ever be friends with them with the sour taste in your mouth from the first job. I couldn't. Even if you can, when you put that relationship into the client/contractor level, you will find a whole other dynamic.
For example, they're asking for an estimate of the time to do the job. It wouldn't surprise me a bit when (not if) it took longer than you/they thought, there would be significant nagging and possible renegotiations not in your favor as a result. The good news is that will probably sink the "friendship" irrevocably. I say "good news" because you don't need "friends" like this.
How would you handle callbacks? That's another thing to consider.
Howdy...Always a dicey proposition when you work for friends... I tend to work with not for, but you never know...
What you can do is take a look at your local paper and see if there are any "Handyman" ads in the classifieds or in your phone book and see if there are any listed there. Make a discreet inquiry call to either and it should give you a decent idea of what your area will pay.
I used to do work for friends and relatives at no charge - they paid materials, I used my tools. One day I needed to chop out a row of Lilac stumps and I gave the 1st inlaw an axe, shovel, pick. Cut out some stumps in exchange for my working for you. He was quite indignant that I would ask him to do work. I called a friend one day, who was always over looking get something done, to set up a time to give me a hand standing up walls for my garden shed. He became too busy for the foreseeable future. 2nd inlaw wanted some work done and I needed a massage (she does that). I figured an exchange would be appropriate. Turned out my labor was free and she needed to charge me her normal hourly fee.
My labor rate is 40$ hr, 2 hr minimum, no cheques, no credit and don't think a box of donuts will do it. And a box of donuts is the fee for talking to me about your issues. I will accept labor of equal value ( I determine) and it is done in advance. I have one inlaw who comes when I need a hand and for him he gets anything he needs.
I have a lot of friends that I will do things for. All others are mere aquaintances including most relatives and the labor costs 40$.
You have to remember that if these people spent money on tools and the time to learn how to do it themselves, this would be a different story. The ones that don't buy the tools have money for the vacations and retirement funds because you work for free using yours tools and time.
Why come up with an "excuse"? Just man up and tell them that you (or the OP) doesn't like to work for friends because it's frought with problems on both sides.
Reminds me of some people who have gone out waterskiing with me. I drive the truck, launch the boat, drive the boat, put gas in both at great expense and otherwise do all of the work. My boat runs on gas, not on "thanks". Real skiers know this immediately and always offer gas money, before we even get wet. They are the ones who get called back, even if I refuse the money.
Short story short. - - - - - These people are not friends
I think they are cheap bastards looking for a free ride or as close as they can get. I'd charge $50 an hour if I'd do it at all. Not only should they have paid for your lunch, they should have invited your wife to join you.
I'd just say "I can't take on a job like that right now" and give no details. Once they pay you, they will think they own you and will really be a PITA for years to come. Not worth the hassle. I'd get a tin can and stand on the corner with a "Will Work For Food" sign before working for these people.
Unless this is a legitimate charity case (which it does not seem to be) tell them that your situation has changed and you are no longer taking on these types of projects.
Just because they ASK you a question does not require that you answer it. In this case, they are asking the wrong question to the wrong person. Here is the RIGHT question:
Are you interested in taking on another project for us?
Here is the right answer: No, I would prefer that you find someone else to do the that project for you.
If they persist with other questions, your response should be that you have no knowledge of what prevailing rates and time required - that would be something to ask whoever they consider. Do NOT give them an estimate.
You can retain your relationship with these people (friends, neighbors, etc.) by simply stating that while you will continue to meet them socially, your priorities have changed and you do not have the TIME do take on their project.
Pete, I will not disagree with you about ungrateful people who won't return the favor. However, here's the other side:
A youth group leader (friend of mine) paid the cost for two sons to attend several youth activities because both of their parents were out of work and on hard times. A few months later, both adults were employed and had new cars in their driveway. My friend told me he intended to approach the parents for reimbursement of what he had paid for their sons' benefit. I don't remember whether he did or not. What I told him was that the parents would not consider they owed him anything - he was just being generous for the boys sake. He had never made any contract or agreement that he would be repaid, so they would rebuff his efforts to collect.
Moral to the story: Unless there is at least a discussion and verbal commitment that your friends and relatives will return the favor upon request, they will consider that payment for the materials is payment in full. No further debt is owed.
There're a couple of ways to approach this and most people here have given the easy out - bail out now. Good advice.
People that don't offer even minor hospitality to workers, and particularly friends that are working for them, are scum. It's indicative of a mentality that is best described as a defective human. There will be plenty of other opportunities for them to display their shortcomings if you take the work. I don't work for people like that and have learned to weed them out before the negotiations go to far. I beg off the job explaining that what they're looking to do isn't a good fit for me, then I give them some names of competitors who I think would enjoy a nightmare customer. Yes, I know, I'm evil. ;)
As an amateur you are at a bit of a disadvantage. Are home improvement licenses required for contractors where you are? If so, you won't have a leg to stand on if the job goes into the toilet and you could be setting yourself up for bigger problems.
You don't have the experience to price the job and haven't learned how to deal with problem customers. Problem customers are best avoided at all costs. It only takes one bad customer to swallow up the profits from a couple or three good customers - some you can't please no matter what you do. They'll also take every opportunity to bad mouth you and your work.
If you're still contemplating working for them, you're either optimistic or stupid or a bit of both. Not meant as an insult - everyone has to put on the blinders once in while to deal with life. If you're married you know what I mean!
The other way to approach it is to take the job, cover your ass with asbestos/kevlar jockeys or boxers, and set it up in a way that will minimize the headache. You'll need to have everything spelled out - if there's _any_ room for interpretation, they'll interpret it to mean they save money, every time. The hourly rate is simple for them to start bitching about. "You were gone for 45 minutes for lunch and you were ten minutes late getting here, so let's knock off an hour." You'll have to justify every hour which is a royal pain. That "rough" estimate of the total number of hours will come back to haunt you. They'll interpret that to be a cap on the price.
It's a basement bathroom, so I'm not sure whether the owner will be just looking for a place to park it or the Taj Mahal. If they're planning on buying the fixtures and materials to save money it's certain that it will cost you extra time.
Instead of an hourly rate give them a daily or half-day rate. That will minimize the quibbling about the number of breaks you took, etc. You may want to give a Not To Exceed labor price based on a written list with the exact fixtures, materials and quantities and work on the daily rate up to that point.
A very rough ballpark way of estimating such jobs is to add all materials (including what is supplied by the owner) and labor then add at least 50 or 60%. That's roughly how much a contractor would charge. As you're doing this on the side, don't have insurance, etc it'd be hard for you to justify charging that amount. Whatever you do, make sure that you charge about $30 for that sandwich they never gave you. ;)
If you want them to remain "friends", decline the work at any price.
You're already emotionally primed to have a conflict with them and it'll only get worse if you take on the bathroom.
My advice only, and worth every penny you paid for it.
Good luck Mike Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. "I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
A few of bits of advice I got when I went into business:
Re: trading work with no money involved. Full retail for full retail. Charge what you would charge if you were putting a price on the job. Set the value you are trading for at what it would sell for.
Never do work on the if/come "if you'll give me a good price on this job, I have a lot more work." Do each piece of work as a separate job and as if you will never see this human again. They'll keep asking for the discount rate.
A friend does not ask you to do things for free or cheaply. If they do, they are not your friend in that regard, and a diplomatic way to decline the work must be found. If a diplomatic way cannot be found, then bluntness always works, but it may cost you a "friend". Now you may have, as I do, friends that I do free work for, but they also return the favor, and over the years, I can say the scales are even. Whenever the scales get REALLY uneven, it's time to reassess the relationship.
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