The Perils of Working For Friends

[tom_murphy]

I strongly agree!! I have bought lunch for contractors whom I AM PAYING for a job. The house is finished now, but I'll still offer the cable guy, or electrician, or UPS driver etc. a bottled water or Gatorade when they arrive, and send them away with another for the (Texas) hot drive to the next job.

To the OP, the most charitable description of your "friends" is "clueless and inconsiderate. The more appropriate description is "bloodsucking users". They should have been crushing you with kindness for the favor you did them. They already seem to have an outsized sense of entitlement. Imagine what they'll be like if they have paid you and feel you "owe them" the work.

I do car repairs for my in-laws (occasionally pretty extensive jobs) and they always try to pay me. I never accept, but they'll immediately set a date for a nice steak or barbecue dinner to show appreciation. Plus, my father-in-law frequents garage/estate sales and occasionally brings me a great tool or other find and won't let me even pay his cost. It's a pleasure to do favors for people like this.

RUN, do not walk, from this potentially disastous "job". These are not nice people.

[LRod]

While W&B may be part of it, I've long had a theory that the reason the Bonanza had such a reputation is that doctors were among the very few that could afford a Bonanza (and the Bonanza is/was right near the top of the desirability scale in single engine aircraft) straight out of the box after getting a license without working up to it through progressively more complex airplanes like the rest of us have to. Lack of experience basically, or as we in the ATC business used to say: a hundred mile an hour pilot in a 200 mile an hour airplane.

We used to have more trouble with Mooney pilots than any other type. I posited that (as with Bonanzas, but from a slightly different aspect), the affordability of the Mooney permitted too many hundred mile an hour pilots to own them and they were far too frequently several miles per hour behind. My experience, by the way, is mostly from the IFR perspective, which only adds to the complexity issue.

[Lew Hodgett]

It was a reference to a high performance aircraft that exceeded the capabilities of the pilot.

Can tell you a very interesting tale about flying in a "banana" from Cleveland to San Angelo, TX and back a couple of times during a major airline strike back in the mid 60s.

Lew

[B A R R Y]

That exact explanation might go for a Cirrus today. Next? VLJ's! A

400 MPH, 30,000 ft. doctor!

Boy does it ever. That's something that a good, modern GPS (and the proper training in it's use) really helps simplify. Autopilots are much cheaper and more prevalent than the early Bonanza days, as well.

Best doctor-pilot story I've heard in a while, told to me at a fly-in in July, by a guy based at the field where it supposedly happened:

At Republic, which is ~10 NM ENE of JFK, a Bonanza runs off the end of the runway. FRG has ~5500 and 6500 ft runways, not exactly short or difficult to stay on for a piston single. Upon arrival, they find a slightly damaged aircraft with no one aboard. EMS & Airport personnel literally beat the bushes for hours looking for the occupant(s), thinking injured or stunned people wandered off and collapsed or got lost on airport property. A few hours later, Dr. Anon and his "companion" (daughter??? ), whom he doesn't want listed on reports, appear at the FBO asking for the location and condition of the plane. Where were they? They were late for dinner reservations!

I don't know if it's really true, but the guy telling it is a local cop on Long Island.

[LRod]

Similar, but much sadder story: I was working a midshift one winter night. About 0400 (lcl) we vectored a Bonanza (out of BNA, if I recall correctly) for the ILS at PIA, turned him over to the CTAF (PIA TWR closed on mids), and never heard from him again.

After about a half hour alerted watch desk, who contacted various people on a hierarchy list, finally ISP found the wreckage a mile short of the runway, all iced up. Two bodies, pilot and much younger, unrelated female.

The really sad part was that part of the phone call hierarchy was to the home of the registered A/C owner to see if he had arrived and failed to call in. The owner's wife answered the (by now) 0600 phone call. I would not have wanted to be involved in that conversation.

[Max]

"woodpassion" wrote I need some guidance on how much to charge...anyone here do

BTDT. I *usually* say, "If you pay me what *you* think I'm worth, I'll be insulted; If you pay me what *I* think I'm worth, You'll be insulted". "Just pay me enough to ensure that I won't turn you down next time."

Max

[bf]

Wow, that is a mamoth job to do, especially if they just sat on their asses the whole time and did not help. They could've at least helped you hang the drywall or haul away the debris.

I'm sure you did a great job. But now these friends are thinking "How can we get this sucker to do more, and Cheap?"

Tell them you don't have time to do this job. Even if you need the money badly, there's easier ways to make money. This job will destroy what's left of your friendship. They treated you like a slave when you were working for free. Can you imagine how miserable you'll be doing this when they're paying you. Oh yeah, they will screw you over on the fees. That's why they are asking for an hourly rate and a max hours. I'm sure they'll add a lot of extra tasks on, and still expect you to only charge the max hour rate.

[Mark & Juanita]

Why? That's never bothered Microsoft or any of a number of other "professional" software vendors. :-)

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[George Max]

I've got a friend for whom I have done things. He's also a guy to whom I have loaned tools. He's never expected me to work for free and he's taken good care of my tools if he's done the work himself.

He recently asked me to make something for him. I worked up how much I would charge for that, told him and didn't hear back. I guess his situation can't fit that into his budget at this time. The work hasn't been done by me, him or anyone else.

In the end, we're still friends.

The good part is the he recognizes that by asking me to make something he's taking up my time and putting wear on my stuff and compensates accordingly. Probably not as well as if I'd be doing this for a stranger, but it still works out.

It sounds like your friends don't recognize the value of your time to you. They think you're their servant. I wouldn't do much of anything for them. If it were me, I'd be busy into the forseeable future and let them find someone else to do the work. No, I wouldn't have a rude confrontation, I'd simply be unavailable. Maybe they'll figure it out, maybe they won't.

[mac davis]

For sure... we're seeing the difference a little courtesy and consideration makes on our house in Baja...

We're building next to our friends from CA, and using the same builder...

They're sort of "high maintenance" people and are pretty insistent that deadlines be met, everything goes by the original plans, etc.. Sort of typical Gringos, I'm afraid..

We're pretty laid back and always bring him a pen, bowl, wood burning, etc. when we come down and go out of our way to tell him what a great job he's doing... If we have a question or want something done differently, we try to be tactful and compliment the rest of the work while requesting things..

The difference in the 2 houses is actually visible... there's is EXACTLY to plan... period...

Our house, mostly due to the builders suggestions as we go, is better finished, has more upgrades, (most at no charge), and only his best people work on it... an example is that when I really started picturing working in the shop, I realized that I should have asked 220v outlets on 2 more walls... he just said "no problem" and had the electrician add them.. at no charge!

He called yesterday and asked if we wanted the windows installed in the center, outside or inside of the wall space... something that hadn't even occurred to me... We talked a while and decided that since the walls were so thick, we'd center them and leave a 4" sill on each side, something my wife likes the idea of... He didn't give our neighbors the option, just installed them flush as per the plans...

Just a reminder to myself that courtesy and respect go a long way... 2 things that the OP's "friends" definitely didn't show for him... Mac

[Swingman]

Ahhh, yes ... the sweetest revenge a builder/contractor can exact from asses: doing it _exactly_ according to their (bad) plan.

[Pop`]

If it's causing trouble, one or more of the parties doesn't know what friendship really means. Cut losses and be honest. A real friend won't care.

[Upscale]

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the friend you have, who the person is and how close a friend they are? I've got a best friend that I'd do anything for if it was within my capability and on the outset, appears to not going to cost me something exorbitant. He's rarely asked me for anything and when I've been in need and asked him to go out of his way for me, he's done it without question. I know what when I have an emergency, he will be there to help me and he knows the reverse is true. It may be that we don't even think of taking advantage of each other because we both know that if it comes down to something really important, we're both willing to go the extra distance for each other. I call this person my best friend and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Wayne K]

When I have a project beyond my skills and I have a friend, neighbor, inlaw, aquaintance that I know will do a good job, I insist on them NOT to give me a discount. I want a job well done and am willing to pay for it. It's not fair to them. Though they usually insist. I also help any way I can without getting in the way. I have a neighbor in the Home improve biz and asked his advice on patching my roof after a large limb fell on it and created some minor leaks. He went to his house 3 doors down, cut some coil stock, slid it under the damaged shingles and nailed it down. 15-20 minutes max. Done. He would not accept a penny. He did get a gift cert in the mail for the restaurant of his choice along with a sincere thank you.

[mac davis]

Exactly.... I think a good designer/builder can see things shaping up during construction and suggest little changes that will enhance the home... and he damn sure didn't do that for them.. *g*

Also, (their house was started a few months before ours) he didn't like the way the plywood under the verandas looked on their house and asked if we'd rather have exposed beams.. at no added costs... He's a pretty cool dude.. Mac

[Roy]

[Roy]

This is a troll, right? Not to say this hasn't been a great thread to read, but this is the only post this person has made on usenet that I could find. Hasn't even chimed in on his own thread.

Curious minds wonder, and in my case, sometimes wander.

Troll or not, dropkick those bastids through the goal posts of life, and get on with your own. You'll be better off without that baggage.

Regards, Roy

[LRod]

Funny, I was thinking that a little earlier today. Seems to me we had a similar troll a couple of weeks ago.

(If Locutus or TBM (that's a GM built Avenger, right?) feel put upon not being able to read all that led up to your post and my response, then they're just being obtuse about an out of date and much abused practice.)

but this is the only

on his own thread.

with your own.

[Locutus]

It's a PIA, but I deal with it.

[George Max]

The OP painted a picture of friends that used him for free labor and knowledge on a major project and couldn't even go so far as to think of him when carry out food was ordered.

It's that kind of situation I was addressing.

The kind of friend you mention is a whole different ballgame. I don't think the OP has that kind of relationship with them. Of course you go the extra mile, heck, the extra hundred miles for a friend that's like a brother.