OT Mean while...

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It's funnny how Malthus and his There Won't Be Enough To Go Around got hooked up a bastardized version of Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Only The Fit Will Survice. With those to assumptions the world is seen from a Me OR You perspective - and WHEN push comes to shove it's going to be just ME - cause I'll kill YOU if that becomes necessary for ME to survive. This is what is referred to as a Zero Sum Game - for someone to gain, someone else must lose.
That precludes thinking in terms of Me AND You - synergy - the actual sum of the parts being greater than the numeric value of the parts.
Populations tend to level out and then begin to decline in industrialized countries - witness Japan, much of Europe, the United States, Canada, etc. So as other countries reach a certain development level their popolation growth rate will level off and decline - as will the population. But the percapita energy consumption has always - continued to climb.
It's not the population growth that's the problem - it's the consumption of non-renuable resources or the resources that are renewable - but not at a rate need that is - and it'll be water - that you can drink - that we should be concerned about.
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On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:07:41 -0800, charlie b wrote:

But the increase in the US has NOT leveled out. More of it is immigration instead of births than it used to be, but it's still growth. Gotta' keep that Ponzi economy going :-).
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:07:41 -0800, charlie b wrote:

Yep. Saw tonight that both the US and NATO military establishments are making contingency plans to fight and/or prevent water wars due to global warming and population growth.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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charlie b wrote:

Almost all water is previously USED water. Whatever it was used for is just temporary. Water, like energy cannot really be destroyed - it's just being used somewhere.
As for water shortages, the fix is usually quite simple to describe: the areas susceptible to drought should quit growing water-intensive foods. They should import water-intensive food from areas where water is abundant. For example, it makes no sense to grow rice in the Sudan.
Of course to do that, they have to develop something from which than can earn foreign monetary credits with which to buy the food. Perhaps mining minerals or opening technical support call centers...
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HeyBub wrote:

Your example is an interesting coincidence - I've been corresponding with a prof in Khartoum who's interested in helping to develop an inexpensive solar-powered pump to expand the growing area along the Nile and provide a city water supply in Khartoum.
If a large-scale solar-powered desalinization technology can also be developed, drought susceptibility might have much less impact.

If you can find a real long-term solution to that problem and help them implement it, I suspect that Al-HaiBub will become a more important historical figure than Al-Iskandr throughout that entire region. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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On 12/12/2009 5:21 AM HeyBub spake thus:

Right; just as it makes little or no sense to grow cotton in Arizona.
*Cotton* in Arid-zona???!??
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I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
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On 12/16/2009 02:05 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

Yep. My wife is a geologist and thinks that anyone buying property in Arizona is nuts due to the water issues.
She also has little sympathy for people buying houses near the San Andreas fault in California, and building on the edges of cliffs in Vancouver. (And then they wonder why their houses fall into the ocean...)
Chris
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Houses built on cliffs should be reclassified as mobile homes. You now they're going to move eventually.
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wrote:

Yeas ago (duh!) in one of Johnny Carson's monologs he said that California was the only state in the Union where one had to have an operator's license to own a home... earthquakes, mudslides ... <motion with hand sliding down hill>
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

Umm, yeah. You get to schedule the rainfall, there is very little danger of destruction by hail or other natural disasters. Yields are good and growing season is near ideal -- cotton loves hot.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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On 12/16/2009 9:46 PM Mark & Juanita spake thus:

Well, yeah, cotton loves hot (can you say "Egypt"?), but what they say about Arizona is it's a place so dry the trees follow the dogs around. Growing cotton there just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
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On 12/17/2009 06:07 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

http://www.cap-az.com /
The cotton grown here in AZ is pretty good stuff:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-pima-cotton.htm
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On 12/18/2009 7:48 AM Doug Winterburn spake thus:

The CAP is a misbegotten project that should never have been built in the first place. See Marc Reisner's /Cadillac Desert/ for a full explanation.

Well, yeah; even has its own well-known name (Pima cotton). Still a bad idea.
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

i blame those damn pima indians, who started growing it here centuries ago, who got it from the incas in peru.
regards, charlie cave creek, az
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Each one of those accepts certain premises as givens that are far from proven.
Climate change: Doest the climate change? Yes. Is man causing this? Hardly plausible let alone proven.

First premise taken as a given is that population growth in the developed world is a serious problem. Second premise taken as a given is that populations in the developed world are increasing at an alarming rate.
Population growth in developed countries has always found technological solutions to address the ability to maintain that civilization.
Population growth in the US is due primarily to immigration. Citizens of the US are just at replacement rate. Citizens in the European countries are below replacement rate. At this point, their problem is not overpopulation, but loss of population. This is going to have profound effects in the coming years. The only people in European countries reproducing at growth rates are immigrants from third world countries who bring a particular mindset that is not conducive to sustainable civilization.

See above, we are currently at sustainment rate with the exception of immigration.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:49:12 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Well, I'll give you that there isn't absolute proof, but then there never is. But "hardly plausible" doesn't fly. The overwhelming majority (80-90%?) of experts *in the field* say that our activities are having an effect.
Now I know you (and HeyBub) are going to claim a giant conspiracy of all those scientists, but have you considered that the deniers may well (and some do for a fact) have ties to economic interests for the status quo? That is, those few with credence in the field - I don't care about the others.
Someone had a letter in our newspaper a few days ago denying global warming because there were more Antarctic icebergs than usual and that proved the glaciers were growing and calving. Today a respondent pointed out that Antarctic glaciers don't come from icebergs, they come from ice fields breaking up. And guess why they're breaking up at an increased rate ...
The above does not address the question of how much of the warming is man made, the first writer totally denied there was any warming. I see an awful lot of that. See my sig line :-).
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Your 90% figure may very well be correct. I remind you of what Einstein said: "No amount of experiments will prove my theory correct, but it only takes ONE to prove it wrong."

Sigh. Three of the Antartic ice sheets/glaciers are shrinking. Seven are growing.

The earth IS probably warming. It's not as warm as it was during the Middle Ages. Further, more warming is good: Longer growing seasons, etc. An open Northwest passage, for example, would be a tremendous boon for world trade.
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The problem arises when one considers that the data those experts are using has been filtered through a handful of people, and there is very strong evidence that they manipulated that data for political and financial reasons.
Then, when asked for the raw numbers their manipulated data came from, the response is "Oh, the dog ate it."
As for economic ties, have a look at the incredible fraud happening in the Danish cap and trade market, and who the international corporate interests are that have been pushing for cap and trade.
A vast conspiracy? No, of course not. But a vast conspiracy isn't needed. Just a handful of people with an agenda and the power to push it.
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On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:59:30 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:

Care to list that "handful" of people?

Cite, please.
The following report was recommended to me today. I haven't had time to read it yet, but will. Meantime, for those who are interested:
<http://copenhagendiagnosis.org/
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Larry Blanchard wrote:

"The Dog Ate It"
"SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based. " http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece
Refusal to release data they DO have:
"I'm getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data. Don't any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act!" [Phil Jones, head of CRU] http://donklephant.com/2009/11/29/climategate-and-britains-foi /
And absolutely fudging of data:
"Why does NIWA's graph show strong warming, but graphing their own raw data looks completely different? Their graph shows warming, but the actual temperature readings show none whatsoever!" http://www.climatescience.org.nz/images/PDFs/global_warming_nz2.pdf
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