OT Mean while...

[Dave Balderstone]

The images here are horrific:

[Larry Blanchard]

sigh.

[Mark & Juanita]

That's because the EU is an agglomeration of multiple countries. Would be like combining all of South American countries or if the US, Canada, and Mexico combined their GDP's. The EU is not yet a full-fledged country on its own, though it is attempting to do so -- it really will depend upon whether France, Great Britain, Italy, and other large European countries are willing to surrender their sovereignty to a larger governing body.

[Greg Neill]

The comparison is between economic blocks. As you say, the EU's common market makes it behave almost like a single entity, much as the individual U.S. states' economies comprise the U.S.'s overall economy.

If you take a close look at the U.S., you can see that the individual states have not 'surrendered' all of their autonomy either. They have their own economies and sets of laws, but bow to the Fed for certain cross-jursdictional matters. Canada is the same way with its Provinces.

[J. Clarke]

Actually, according to the IPCC report he's pretty close to the mark. The alarmists give this vision of coastal cities being hundreds of feet under water and radically changed coastlines and "another Venus" and the like but that's not what the IPCC Is asserting is going to happen. Instead they're saying things like it will rain more in one area and less in another (and it's _very_ questionable whether their models are accurate at that level of detail even if they do have the broad outline right, which in itself is debatable) and that sort of thing.

[Mark & Juanita]

It's quite a stretch to compare the EU's member nations to the equivalent of US states.

Again, there is a significant difference between the member nations of the EU vs. the states that comprise the US federal Republic. Each of the EU member nations has regions or states within each member nation as well -- Germany has Saxony, Prussia, etc. Great Britain has England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, etc. Those would be a closer analogy to the US make-up.

[Greg Neill]

Not when viewed as economic blocks with mutual goals and a shared currency.

I think your'e looking for differences that aren't germaine to the argument. You can argue similar differences between, say, Louisianna and California. They are each comprised of counties, elect their own governments, have representatives at the 'national' level, etc., They act in concert for national interests affecting the agglomeration (the U.S.A).

The point is, the EU taken as an economic block now surpasses the U.S. in GDP. This is one of the reasons why, for example, OPEC is looking to allow oil trading in Euros as well as U.S. dollars, the throughts of which horrifies the U.S. bankers. The Euro is backed by a total economy at least on a par with that of the U.S.

[LDosser]

Stomach turning!! A vision of Hell. Dickens never saw anything this bad.

[Dave Balderstone]

The world of Dickens only had "normal" poisons available. We have many more.

If only the UN control freaks were actually interested in cleaning up the poisonous shit being poured onto the planet, mostly in the so-called "developing world" rather than simply stealing wealth from the people (read: taxpayers in "western" countries) who actually CREATE the wealth... In the guise of "Carbon".

But the issue isn't about a healthy planet. It's about a wealthy uberclass that gets to dictate how well we will live.

THAT'S what the HopenChangen conference was all about (oops, I'm Canadian, I should have said "Aboot").

And as a Canadian, I'm damned proud that the greentards castigated my country at that farce of a UN event. The Canadian government has the balls to say "We're not going to destroy our economy to please the likes of Chavez and Mugabe."

Sweet.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:13:18 -0800, the infamous "LDosser" scrawled the following:

From what I remember in high school, those pics could have been from the USA 40 years ago. We've come a long way, baby.

I'll have to call "Bullshit" on that one, Lobby. Dickens _lived_ it.

London's back yards were open pools of shit where everyone tossed their chamber pot sewage every morning. It finally seeped down and contaminated all their wells. Why do you suppose there were all those outbreaks of cholera and everyone could drink only beer or ale?

can't believe I'm quoting these libtards.)

"The Victorian city of London was a city of startling contrasts. New building and affluent development went hand in hand with horribly overcrowded slums where people lived in the worst conditions imaginable. The population surged during the 19th century, from about

1 million in 1800 to over 6 million a century later. This growth far exceeded London's ability to look after the basic needs of its citizens.

A combination of coal-fired stoves and poor sanitation made the air heavy and foul-smelling. Immense amounts of raw sewage was dumped straight into the Thames River. Even royals were not immune from the stench of London - when Queen Victoria occupied Buckingham Palace her apartments were ventilated through the common sewers, a fact that was not disclosed until some 40 years later.

Upon this scene entered an unlikely hero, an engineer named Joseph Bazalgette. Bazalgette was responsible for the building of over 2100 km of tunnels and pipes to divert sewage outside the city. This made a drastic impact on the death rate, and outbreaks of cholera dropped dramatically after Bazlgette's work was finished. For an encore, Bazalgette was also responsible for the design of the Embankment, and the Battersea, Hammersmith, and Albert Bridges."

"Victorian children were very close to death and suffering. In the

1830s almost half the funerals in London were for children under ten years old. Many people died from infections and diseases that we would rarely die of today, such as measles and scarlet fever. Children often experienced the death of a parent, brother or sister. If one of their parents died, wealthy children were expected to go into mourning and wear black clothing for up to a year. They may also have worn mourning jewellery such as a bracelet of plaited hair removed from the head of a dead relative.

Poor children were more likely to suffer from death and disease. Many lived in dirty, crowded conditions and shared living accommodation with other families. They often lived in homes without heat where the only furniture was a heap of rags and straw. The lack of nutritious food, toilet facilities and the poor quality of drinking water resulted in serious cases of diarrhea, typhoid and other infections. Raw sewage in the drinking water and the stench of the River Thames also made people feel almost constantly sick. Many people could not afford to visit a doctor or pay for medicines. Although the Great Ormond Street Hospital for sick children was founded in 1852, most sick children continued to be cared for at home in dirty and crowded conditions. Babies were especially likely to become ill and up to half of all poor children born in London died in their first year."

Do some more research, Lobby. It will make you very happy, indeed, to live in this era vs. the grueling Victorian one. No more gruel today, either!

-- This episode raises disturbing questions about scientific standards, at least in highly political areas such as global warming. Still, it's remarkable to see how quickly corrective information can now spread. After years of ignored freedom-of-information requests and stonewalling, all it took was disclosure to change the debate. Even the most influential scientists must prove their case in the court of public opinion?a court that, thanks to the Web, is one where eventually all views get a hearing. --Gordon Crovitz, WSJ 12/9/09

[Dave Balderstone]

Ah, the Good Old Days.

[Swingman]

Nay, kind sir, wrong species!

Be reminded that the major mode of transportation in London in those day was equine, not bovine. And, if you've ever had to clean out a horse stall twice in 12 hours ... well, you do the math.

Judging from the comments herein it is obvious that "horse shit" operates under the Theory of Conservation of Energy, the amount remains constant, albeit in a different form. ;)

[Mark & Juanita]

Hard to tell if that is universally real or just another media-induced hype. Time and other media outlet photographers can embellish stories into the surreal. OTOH, if that is universally real, then we really don't have much to fear long-term from China as that kind of local destruction will lead to killing themselves off from within. That kind of thing falls into the "poop in your own bathtub" realm of environmental destruction; something that is real, demonstrable, and controllable. It is also something completely unsustainable long-term.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:39:14 -0600, the infamous Swingman scrawled the following:

Then we can agree, Sir Swingy, that London was but a shitty place to live in times of Vic.

-------------------------------------------- -- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. -- ============================================

[LDosser]

Unfortunately we sent an empty Suit.

[LDosser]

[LDosser]

Not even close!! And I lived it. Not even when the last fish died in Lake Erie. Not when the Cuyahoga RIVER went on fire. Not close at all. What high school you go to?

I'll see your Bullshit and raise it. In Dickens' time the shit was not flowing downhill to the Continent. In Dickens time it affected a few hundred thousand people in mainly European cities. In China it is Billions and the crap blows across the Pacific and flows into the Pacific. Dickens would have fainted dead away.

FWIW, I lived in a Glasgow tenement in the late 1940s-early 1950s, so I've seen some of Dickens up 'close' and personal. Coal fires. Some with no bathrooms. Back "Green" pretty close to what you described for London. Smog so damn thick every other kid had asthma. Parents all smoking 50 a day. But, hey, we had Public Transportation.

[LDosser]

Forgot to mention we Still had horseshit in the streets of Glasgow in the

1940-1950. Milk and coal were still delivered by horse cart and the 'rag and bone man' would come round with a horse cart now and then. Plus police patrols on horse back.

[LDosser]

Unfortunately those of us on the left coast share the tub with them and the rest of the Northern Hemisphere breathes their air

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:12:52 -0800, the infamous "LDosser" scrawled the following:

I remember seeing tons of pictures just like that as a teen. I never physically saw any of the pollution, though. Vista High, Vista CA. Back then, Vista's population was 14,000 people. I still prefer small towns, but I'm not as optimistic about fair government any longer.

No, he'd probably have thought it was merely more of the same...IF he'd known about it. Things weren't as global back then, especially concerning China.

Yeah, at leasft you had that. It doesn't sound like much fun.

-------------------------------------------- -- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. -- ============================================