One last question (today that is...) on buying rough hardwood

[Eigenvector]

One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that has split apart.

So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood Here's a pic of what I mean -

[dpb]

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...

At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.

And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_ considered a defect.

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[Eigenvector]

Just the way it comes....

So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?

I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I would imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to buy it - 'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.

[Toller]

It is much easier just to take a better piece.

Which reminds me on an old story... A particular Grossmans lumber yard simply stopped selling lumber; not on purpose, just no one came into buy any. They figured it out; they had stopped scrapping the crap, so the bins filled up with crap and they thought they had a full inventory. But customers discovered there was nothing purchasable, so they shopped elsewhere.

[The Davenport's]

No, you would buy it anyway because (point 1) it is NOT a defect, just a split. Which brings me to (point 2) cut the split end off and you've got a

7" long piece AND two pieces to use for checking how the stain you are using REALLY looks on this piece of wood, you have material for making plugs, or for loose tenons or, well, you get the idea?

It's STILL wood, just shorter.

Mike

[Eigenvector]

Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a lumber mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on that one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something like oak where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't really usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is bad, give me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems entirely reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from piling up in their inventory.

[James "Cubby" Culbertson]

No. That's why you go to a yard that let's you pick out your boards....to avoid such stuff. Some of the online dealers are good enough that they won't send you junk though. One other thing to note, when BF is calculated, it's calculated at the widest part of the board. So if you have a board that goes from thin to wide to thin again, they measure at the widest point. At least that's how I've been charged. Now in saying that, If there's an obvious defect towards the end of a board, I've been able to talk them down on occasion....but not always. Cheers, cc

[GarageWoodworks]

That's why when I buy my lumber I like to chalk out most of my cuts. If I am buying a 6" wide piece of 4/4 maple and there is a split at one end, I will check and see if I can use that section for a piece of the project that is not as wide. Most often you will be able to do this.

Also, if the split is not very long and you find you can't use that section of the lumber, use it for fire wood.

[Swingman]

not be tomorrow. You make your money when you learn to deal with a medium that is never in a static state.

The lesson here is that you can often make a good deal more profit on a project by buying right and resisting being too picky.

Dropping down a grade, and overbuying at a cheaper price, may be more profitable than picking and choosing at a higher ... not every board in a project needs to be a "perfect" piece of wood, but, perfect or not, there is usually a piece that's "perfect" for the job it needs to do.

[Eigenvector]

Pretty expensive firewood, but your point about using it for other purposes is well taken.

I'm not trying to piss everyone off, and my response to dpb was more irritation at how flippant his comments were. I'm hearing two answers depending on the source. Go to alt.home.repair and the word is - pick through the pile at to get the straightest piece of lumber you can find. Then when asked here the first answer I get is "quit trying to be a perfectionist." Again, I'm NOT a perfectionist, but I'm looking at this from the angle of (this is hypothetical) I need 12 feet of

1x6. I get to the yard and find a nice looking 8 footer, and a another 8 footer that's split on the end. I'm thinking, okay, I don't need the other 4 feet really, so why not get it, try to talk them down on the split end, and use the other 3 or so feet for something else? That seems very reasonable, but based on what I heard from the first response - that's a terribly unreasonble opinion.

[dpb]

My comments weren't intended as "flippant" at all...

I buy hardwood by the 100's of feet at a time if not a full bundle and there _will_ be some splits -- that's life--wood splits.

Whether the BORG will knock off a little for a split end is probably far more likely than a mill unless, as somebody else noted, they're letting you pick and choose -- and if you are, undoubtedly they'll charge a premium for that -- otherwise, all they're left with in the end out of a stack of graded lumber is the minimum pieces and none of the better. So, they end up "eating" a bunch if they don't compensate in some manner.

As for best value in buying hardwood, for almost everything I do I find

1C by far the most cost-effective. Then, by buying in large enough quantities that I have a fair supply on hand, I can select from my own pile what I want/need for any given project.

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[Edwin Pawlowski]

you will have waste. Most woodworkers figure 15% to 20% of the wood is going to be scrapped. Trees don't grow to the dimensions of the wood needed for every project.

In the case of the split, it is no necessarily useless wood. It may not be needed today, but it may be tomorrow. I buy boards I like for the grain, for the yield I can get for the project at hand. That useless end that you see, may be perfect for a tray divider, drawer for a small case, etc. My wife collects dolls and I often make her furniture for them and that 1' may be perfect for my needs.

I would, however, give a tug on the end to be sure it is not a split running up the board making it more difficult to use.

[George]

is a drying fault normally, though I have seen some actual splits, as in running more than a couple three inches, caused by the skip planing operation at the sawmill. The rollers squash a cupped (you know what that is now) board so hard they split. Then there are my personal favorites "wind shakes."

Reason you seldom see them is that hardwood sticks are cut over length to compensate. When they trim for sale, the checks are trimmed away. Just ordered some red oak yesterday in 8' lengths. Will get 100-102" rather than the 96" for that nominal length.

[B A R R Y]

I know that story, our Grossman's stores stopped selling everything. I don't miss them.

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[dadiOH]

Given the prices they charge, they should :) __________________

Amen to that...big pieces of furniture are made of little pieces of wood.

[Frank Boettcher]

That happens a lot on wide boards and if not split it will be cupped. If you are going to be doing glue ups for panels, you will want to limit the width of the pieces you use anyway. So on a board like with that condition, that might be 7 or more inches wide, you will rip it first, face joint it, plane it, and then glue it up for your panel width, turning every other piece over to alternate the direction of the grain (keeps post processing wide panel warp to a minimum).

Some suggest a 3" minimum width to glue up, I cheat to 4 o 5.

Wether split or cupped, trying to process a wide board without ripping it first will often cause it to clean up thin. And you have to have a fairly wide jointer to process it properly.

Of course, if the board is narrow and has a split, it may be of no use.

Frank

[Frank Boettcher]

"minimum" should be "maximum.

[Eigenvector]

Ah there we go, now my vocabulary is expanding. Rollers crushing a cup is probably exactly what I was actually referring to - that torn and jagged look that oak gets in the middle.

[Eigenvector]

Well I went hunting around all morning and found a decent place for some stock. Nice selection and good prices. I say good, but who knows what you see back east. 20 bucks with tax for 6 board feet of red oak - 1/2" finished on 2 sides. Pretty damn good, very small cupping. Board is exactly perfect for what I'm working on right now.

[Lee]

Swingman you get a Very loud applause. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.....humor intended