One last question (today that is...) on buying rough hardwood

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One other thing popped into my head while browsing the selection of hardwoods at the yard - some of the pieces were separating or fraying in sections. I don't know the technical term for it, but I would imagine it is caused by uneven drying and having two halves of the wood crook in different directions. Basically the edges of the wood are fine, its the middle that has split apart.
So let's say you have 1 foot of that on an 8 foot board - would you attempt to talk them out of making you pay for that 1 foot of useless wood Here's a pic of what I mean -
http://images.lowes.com/general/s/split.jpg
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Eigenvector wrote:

At a BORG you can try anything; who knows, you might get lucky...
At a real mill or wholesale yard, that's just the way it comes.
And, btw, since you've been asking questions on hardwood, I'll throw in one other tidbit I've not seen mentioned but that comes up, particularly w/ walnut and cherry and others that have such vivid contrast between heart- and sapwood. That is, by hardwood grading rules, sapwood is _not_ considered a defect.
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Just the way it comes....
So all the REAL woodworkers just deal with it and buy defective boards?
I guess given a choice I wouldn't purchase that particular piece, so I would imagine it sits around quite a bit waiting for a REAL woodworker to buy it - 'cause you know that's just the way it gets sold.
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No, you would buy it anyway because (point 1) it is NOT a defect, just a split. Which brings me to (point 2) cut the split end off and you've got a 7" long piece AND two pieces to use for checking how the stain you are using REALLY looks on this piece of wood, you have material for making plugs, or for loose tenons or, well, you get the idea?
It's STILL wood, just shorter.
Mike
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The Davenport's wrote:

According to the NHLA grading rules, checks most assuredly _are_ defects, and a long enough check will result in the board being downgraded. Whether sapwood is a defect or not depends on how much and what species.
Not going to try to explain the rules here--the NHLA rules are online at http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/2007_Rules.pdf . You can find summaries that may be helpful at http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Understanding_Hardwood_Lumber_Grading.html and http://www.natlhardwood.org/illustrated_guide/IllustratedGradingGuide.pdf between them will give you a start.
That said, an experienced woodworker knows that some percentage of any lot of lumber is not going to be usable for any given project and buys accordingly.
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--John
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 05:59:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"

The key words relating to so many grading rules...
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No. That's why you go to a yard that let's you pick out your boards....to avoid such stuff. Some of the online dealers are good enough that they won't send you junk though. One other thing to note, when BF is calculated, it's calculated at the widest part of the board. So if you have a board that goes from thin to wide to thin again, they measure at the widest point. At least that's how I've been charged. Now in saying that, If there's an obvious defect towards the end of a board, I've been able to talk them down on occasion....but not always. Cheers, cc
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Eigenvector wrote:

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Eigenvector wrote:

For some reason, this didn't show up previously to my client...I did see your other comment but wasn't sure what was said...
Anyway, if you're at a place which allows picking and choosing, sure, leave it go -- somebody will have a project that needs or can use the two narrower pieces and won't have any problem with it. If you're buying/selecting only for immediate need and need the full length and width of that particular size piece, then it makes no sense to take it, granted.
Given the reference to Lowes, I was assuming you were talking of the BORG hardwood selection of surfaced material, and "rough" was used in the sense of defects, not unsurfaced. For that material, sure it makes sense to only select a full piece as it is select stock. What little experience I've had buying that kind of material there was the basis for my comment of "anything goes" -- it seems to me those decisions are made ad hoc by department or store managers on the spot with no store policy. Ergo, you can try most anything...
Larger mills and lumberyards, however, typically don't like to deal with the individual "pick-through" simply for the reason you realize -- it leaves them w/ nothing but culls (or for graded hardwood that all met at least the minimum for the grade, the lowest of the grade which is the same thing).
Some places do cater to that market and are priced accordingly, some smaller yards will allow it on an occasional "ask me nicely" basis...
If buying actual roughsawn material, someone else noted splits are defects at the grading time, but checks and splits can (and do) develop after that point. Graded/selected to length bundles typically will average a little over the nominal length to account for it. Random width/length is simply that...
HTH...
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That's why I LOVE my favorite local big hardwood guy.
Pick all you want. He's also a flooring and pointy stick mill, so he's got plenty of uses for culls.
<http://www.cwghardwoodoutlet.com/
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B A R R Y wrote:

...
Surely, if you're in a location that has trees...and, therefore, mills. :)
Had several favorites, particularly in VA, less convenient in TN but still around. SW KS? Not so much... :)
Interesting the last issue of FWW has a big banner on the front cover -- "Where to Find the Best Lumber" -- the article turns out to be mostly about two guys w/ portable sawmills and a small one-man mill catering to the local trade/craft folks.
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If only I could fit lumber into a Beech Sundowner... I'd have to bail you out.
How do you LIVE? <G>
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B A R R Y wrote:

Trees (if there were any) would just get in the way of the combine... :)
Born and raised a "flatlander", spent about 30 yrs "back east/down south" (which depended on who you were talking to -- in VA were actually geographically north of here but deep in the south culturally. TN was E TN but in an area dominated locally by imports, not locals, so except when was traveling doing service work in the coal fields of TN/KY/VA/WVA wasn't really _that_ different) so it's natural to see storms building from 150 miles away on the horizon.
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Who sez you can't?
I'm not intimate with the cabin of a Sundowner, but I don't think its that much smaller than my early Bonanza. I once carried about 50 board feet of sitka spruce (aircraft grade sitka, BTW) in it. I took out the backs of the co-pilot and back seats in order to do it. Fortunately, none of the pieces were longer than about 6 feet.
Worked fine, but I did have to sort of squirm around the lumber to get in and out of the plane. Would have been real bad if I had to get out in a hurry.
--
Frank Stutzman
Beech Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:11:22 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman

If I do it that way, I can. We've actually carried bicycles by leaving the rear seats behind.
I was thinking of pulling the rear bulkhead and bringing 12 footers stuffed into the tail cone. Sundowners are always nose heavy!<G>
But hey... We're looking at a 6 pax Turbo Saratoga with club seating and a huge rear door... That sucker will carry plenty of lumber, at 25,000 feet!
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I've seen a 'ski tube' through the aft bulkheads mod on bonanza that allow this to be done. The amount that could be stuff there is pretty limited, for the obvious W&B reasons. Bonanzas (especially early ones like mine) are only nose heavy when they are near empty with only a 95 pound pilot.

I've never seen it first hand, but you should see what the loons flying the bush in alaska do. 2'x8' slabs of 3/4" plywood strapped to the *outside* of a piper pacer fuselage. Rail road size timbers strapped to the floats of a cessna 205 amphibian. Those guys are braver with an airplane that I will ever be.
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Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
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If you are shopping in TN/VA are you in NE TN? Sure would like to find some suppliers in that area.
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Digger wrote:

Was in Oak Ridge but that's now been 10 yrs. The mill in Maynardville I now understand is no more...
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You can try to get a lower price, but good luck with that. It is much easier just to take a better piece.
Which reminds me on an old story... A particular Grossmans lumber yard simply stopped selling lumber; not on purpose, just no one came into buy any. They figured it out; they had stopped scrapping the crap, so the bins filled up with crap and they thought they had a full inventory. But customers discovered there was nothing purchasable, so they shopped elsewhere.
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Too bad, but no harm asking I suppose. I just can't believe that a lumber mill wouldn't consider selling it for a markdown - even if only on that one section. Figure wood that's split, and especially something like oak where it never actually separates just tears and frays isn't really usable, but the rest of the board would be. 8 feet, 1 foot is bad, give me 7 feet, plus a discount on the remaining 1 foot. That seems entirely reasonable to me and would prevent good lumber from piling up in their inventory.
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