O/T: The Bail Out

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Swingman wrote:

Yeah, and more than likely, the wrong people are going to get blamed and punished for whatever happens.
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RE: Subject
Still remember my father's words:

"If you can prove to the GD banks that you don't need the money, then the SOB's will loan you all the money you want."
Made life a bitch for a lot of people, but it kept the banks in business.
Seems like the financial industry forgot who brought them to the dance.
Lew
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I'm not at all confused but you are being overly pedantic. The economy is not sound; it has been distorted by those greedy bastards that are looking for a bail out today.
Also, your use of the words "Marxist" and "communist" and "liberal" is incorrect and contradictory.
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Jimbo wrote:

The economy did NOT get distorted today, because the Republicans finally got something right and blocked the bailout.

All three terms - as commonly used to describe some point of view - live on the exact same continuum. They are degrees of the same pestilence...
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That's just glib. You know better than that.
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Robatoy wrote: <SNIP>

All three are forms of collectivism in which the power of the group is used to take away from the individual. They are - all three of them - variations of the same mindset implemented in varying degrees.
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This is a ridiculous over-simplification - kind of like suggesting that all Republicans are Fascists.
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Jimbo wrote:

It is an entirely accurate taxonomy. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, but this is what you are supporting.

Most Republicans are also collectivists at some level.
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You have failed to prove your first statement. It doesn't hurt my feeling at all. After all, I am a liberal in the real sense of the word.

Some of my best friends are Republicans. Our arguments usually start when they start to declare their sense of entitlement
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"Jimbo" wrote

"naive" : marked by unaffected simplicity : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment.
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Jimbo wrote:
... snip

Perhaps you can help me out here, I'm not yet fully up on my Book of Obama: Does all of the above happen before or after he lowers the ocean levels and heals the sick?

If, by some chance our country is punished with an Obama presidency, it is more likely we will finally experience that Jimmy Carter second term that we missed in the 80's.
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: Perhaps you can help me out here, I'm not yet fully up on my Book of : Obama: Does all of the above happen before or after he lowers the ocean : levels and heals the sick? : If, by some chance our country is punished with an Obama presidency, it is : more likely we will finally experience that Jimmy Carter second term that : we missed in the 80's.
How in hell could anyone be worse than the dipshit we've had in the White House for the last eight years?
Dave in Houston
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NuWave Dave wrote:

You're kidding, right?
During the last 8 years, we've had record low unemployment averaging 5.2%, it was near 6.5% during Carter's years.
During the last 8 years, inflation has hovered around 3%, during Carter's term it was 6.5% to 13.5%. 2008 has increased to 4.3% due to energy changes, but still below the lowest of Carter's best years.
During the last 8 years, interest rates have ranged from 5 to 7%; during the Carter years, interest rates were double-digit.
Aside from locations undergoing natural disasters, nobody has stood in gas lines to fill up. Gas lines were first encountered during Carter's term.
In the past 8 years, Bush has never blamed the American people for the country's problems. In his infamous "malaise" speech, Carter effectively did.
During Carter's administration, due to the lack of attention paid to the military, it was unable to rescue 50 hostages from a single city in a third world country, nor were we capable of responding to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by doing anything other than boycotting the Moscow Olympics. During the past 8 years, a terror-supporting radical theocratic regime in Afghanistan was brought down and a terror-supporting thug in the Middle East was brought down and his country is now establishing a democracy.
Carter thought he could solve problems by talking also -- that's why Iran held those hostages so long. "As a fellow person of faith, I ask you to free those being held by your people" (or words to that effect) -- Jimmy Carter to the Ayatollah Khomeni. "We have his people and there's not a damn thing he can do about it" -- Ayatollah Khomeni
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Unemployment numbers are flaky at best. A job is not necessarily a job that really benefits the fundamental economy. Yes, pretty much any job is better than no job. But, flippin' burgurs and makin' latte provides limited benefit.

I don't think we know what the effective interest and inflation rates will be for the Bush years for a decade or more -- an administration sets the policies and conditions that will determined the first or second derivatives of each of those . You may have been seeing 5% inflation, but if the decisions that have been made to hold 5% force 20% in 5 years, then averaging over a more suitable period gives a better big picture estimate for the prospects of your wealth. It's tough to measure either inflation or interest well without enough time. The "what are today's numbers" game for Wall St. is just another example of the stupidity. None of this is to be a Carter apologist -- he screwed up in many ways. But it's folly to blame everything that happens in a president's tenure solely on that president unless there are discrete poor decisions. Bush inherited some of Slick Willie's problems -- history will, I believe, crucify him for his discrete decisions and for not trying to correct Clnton's errors (i.e. growing China too fast).
hex -30-
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Another measure of inflation would be what the value is of the dollar versus other currencies. If (for example) the US$/ ratio changes from 0.85 to 1.5, there is great devaluation of the dollar. That makes US goods much cheaper in Europe, which artificially reduces unemployment here, for the moment, and imported goods (oil?) much more expensive for the US (despite the oil being pegged to the dollar, the oil producers still want to get their European luxury goods <hehe>). So in the absence of really good inflation control (which will hurt the common man more than the rich), we are in for bad times, thanks to the Bush years. Whatever you might say of Clinton, that regime ended with a suplus on the balance sheet. Bush' tax cuts and war (and NOT entitlements) have raised the deficit to unprecedented heights, and someone will have to pay off those debts, someone in the future.
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"hex" wrote

And, IIRC, those statistics for jobs flipping burgers are now included as jobs in "manufacturing" ... a despicable subterfuge, almost as bad as removing the cost of food and fuel from the "inflation index".
Another reason why there should not be an incumbent left standing in Congress after November.
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http://tinyurl.com/4dqcqo
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Nothing new about that. A long time ago, I realized the more successful managers were the ones that could best skew the statistics. And so it goes all the way up to the top.
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Inflation rate is yet another scam. I hear but have not researched that they way that it is measured is changed all the time just to reduce the amount of SS benefits. I do not feel that I am losing 5% purchasing power each year. It feels like a lot more. Electricity has gone up a bit. I have bought fuel for less than a dollar a gallon in the past 4-5 years. Milk, bread, potato chips, hay, grain, dog food has gone up by more than 5%. I do not think that a phony inflation rate is a fair measure of any Congress' or president's economic success. Right now I cannot easily find a good article on the CPI or what is in the market basket.
I would like a national sales tax and for people to make stuff, not do ponzi schemes. Part 4 of that is for the fed to not deficit spend. They (Congress, Senate, President are all guilt of ponzi schemes.) Part 5 is for households to not deficit spend except for maybe a reasonably sized and priced house. Of course reasonable is a subjective term.
On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:27:09 -0700, Mark & Juanita

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The lateral shift of 500,000 jobs from $ 25.00 per hour to the jobs that pay $ 6.00 per hour doesn't affect he unemployment numbers, now does it?
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