Jointer expectations from the mill?

[Bill Stock]

This question is somewhat rhetorical, but I'd like some confirmation that I'm not just being anal.

I picked out some lumber from the mill for the first time last week and went to pick it up today. I had it jointed (S2S) as I don't have a Jointer, just a Planer. They seemed a little surprised that I didn't want it planed, perhaps that partly explains the results. I had a quick look when I picked it up today, but did not spend too much time (obviously) checking it over. I just examined all the boards (6'*6" roughly) and there's only one or two faces that are smooth, 4 or 5 with deepish mill marks, another 3 or 4 with divots from not being flattened enough. Then there's the one that you almost can't tell the jointed face from the un-jointed face. The edges don't look bad, except for one with a bad split.

Should I expect these to be jointed for flatness AND smoothness? Can I assume that they expected to plane the marks out of the jointed faces? I know the real answer is to return these for a redo, but can I plane both sides to clean these up? Assuming they are actually flat, which is questionable in a couple of cases.

[dpb]

S2S is surfaced two sides, so you're not on the same page there...

I'm certainly not surprised they were suprised as it makes very little sense to joint an edge before you have flat and parallel surfaces as they're not going to be of much use one you surface a side and plane it.

In reality, you at least should have had them at least do 1S before doing any edges, then you could plane to thickness having a smooth surface to start from. You really should do that to start with anyway to get the two surface faces parallel to each other.

[Toller]

You would never edge plane without first face planing; you would just have to do it over again. S2S refers only to planing, not jointing.

Edge jointing will always be flat and smooth. Face jointing might not be. It is easier to plane than to joint, so you can just joint enough to be sure the face is straight and will be stable in the planer.

If this doesn't answer your question, please try to explain just what you had done to what.

[George Max]

The normal procedure should be face joint, then plane, then joint one edge with reference to one of the flat faces, then rip to get the last edge parallel to the other and perpendicular to a face.

At least that's how I do it. It's been working for me.

So when I read your posting, I assumed you meant you simply wanted them to face joint one face, you'd do the planing to thickness. If that face that was jointed had "divots" or mill marks remaining, it's likely that it's flat enough to go into the planer. You'd just have to make sure to flip it over and plane that face too.

If what you did was have them joint a face, you *could* joint an edge perpendicular to that face, but it may or may not get tearout, depending on the direction of the grain to that single flat face.

So precisely what'd you ask them to do?

BTW, sometimes if the lumber is naturally "flat" you might be able to get away with using the planer only. But that's not the "recommended" procedure.

[Bill Stock]

Thanks, I thought the two sides referred to the Edge and the Face.

Yes, edges look good, faces not so much. I guess the varying quality depends on the original "quality" of the board.

I thought the sequence was Joint Face, Joint Edge, Plane opposite face and Rip opposite Edge. I didn't realize I had to Plane the first Face again.

[Bill Stock]

OK, I thought it was Face Joint, Edge Joint, Plane, Rip. But I've seen a few variations.

That's what I'm hoping, but we'll see.

They Jointed a Face and an Edge. This is what my buddy says he gets done, but he uses a different supplier and has his own jointer.

I was wondering about this, most of the boards in the pile looked pretty flat and straight.

[Toller]

The important thing is that you face joint before edge joint. It doesn't really matter if you plane before or after edge jointing. If they did those, you are in good shape. As long as the face is flat, straight, and square to the edge, a few irregularities will come out in the planer.

[George]

Frankly, I'm amazed that a sawmill operation would even have jointing capability. Skip planing is becoming pretty common in our area, so that automated scanning can select the cuts at the factories, but jointing is something you do last, to get a smooth edge. Edging and ripsawing is enough to get through the grading and stacking process. Must mean a millwork type place?

As you see, some go by mantra, some by sense in the order of business. Personal preference is to get a straight edge to trim to, so I can have a more accurate cut plan and match my material list right away. Can be chalk line/bandsaw or jointer on coarse deep cut. Then the rip on the tablesaw to clear defects like wane or slash knots, sometimes reduce a crowned board to two narrower pieces which will give full thickness after planing. No sense wasting time and effort on kindling. With everything still oversize and spares built in, I'm now ready to prepare boards.

Face, surface, join is the order from there on out. Got to have a reference to start with, and it's a lot easier to square to a face than to face to an edge!

[Swingman]

Your problem appears to be is one of not thoroughly understanding industry terminology.

S2S lumber is, by definition, surfaced (planed) on two faces and both edges are rough.

Not trying to be a smartass, but you'll have a better experience next time if you just tell them your expectations/what you want, instead of using terminology without a full understanding of the definition.

[B A R R Y]

Joint face one so that it's stable against the bottom of the planer.

Plane face two flat.

Flip board and plane face one flat using face two as the reference, if possible. Sometimes, there isn't enough wood to get two perfect faces. The imperfect face can be used where it dosen't show. Plan ahead to get the face you want flat if it looks like you can't have both.

Edge joint.

Rip to width.

[Swingman]

This has gotten awfully bogged down in methodology for someone who professedly doesn't own a _necessary_ tool (jointer) in the first place.

From his description, including the blurb "They seemed a little surprised that I didn't want it planed", it appears that what happened is the yard gave him exactly what he asked for ... rough lumber, run over a jointer.

Totally usele$$ for all practical purposes ... they're probably still scratching their heads on that one.

What the OP REALLY wants, being without a jointer, is S2S1E ... that way he can rip the opposite edge to the desired width and use his planer to plane for the desired thickness.

It is really very simple when everyone involved in the transaction speaks the same language. ;)

[Doug Miller]

Fine so far... but next, we disagree.

If the board isn't pretty close to flat already, you're running a significant risk of binding and kickback by ripping on a tablesaw. Better to use a bandsaw for this step if the board hasn't been face-jointed yet.

[Doug Miller]

Call those steps 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively.

You must do 1 before 2 or 3. You must do 2 before 4.

2 and 3 may be done in either order. 3 and 4 may be done in either order.

Thus, the order of all four steps can be 1234, 1243, or 1324.

You don't necessarily -- it depends on how clean the jointed face is. If the rough board has a slight twist or bow [*], generally you need to joint the first face completely flat across its full width and length in order to produce a stable reference surface for the planer. Then, the decision whether to plane that face or not depends mostly on whether your planer will give you an even smoother surface than you have from the jointer. If the rough board is cupped, however, you don't need to joint it completely flat before planing the opposite face -- but you will need to plane the jointed face again.

[* -- Boards with moderate or severe twist or bow should never see the inside of your shop. Leave those at the lumberyard. Even if you can reduce the degree of warp by cutting them into smaller pieces, and get them jointed flat, they often don't stay that way. Better to start out with lumber that doesn't have that problem to begin with. ]

[Doug Miller]

Which is why he wanted the lumber yard to joint it...

How do you figure that's useless? If he has a planer, and doesn't have a jointer, then that's exactly what he'd want: jointed, but not planed.

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying that it is to be jointed *too*, what he's going to get from most lumberyards is wood that's been planed two sides and straight-line ripped one edge, but not jointed anywhere.

Quite so -- thus the importance of specifying "jointed" if that's what you need.

[George]

I "left those at the lumberyard," or in my case, the sawmill. You do what you're comfortable with as far as width reduction. Can also save some thickness if you knock either side off.

[Swingman]

Not necessary to specify when ordering surfaced lumber.

You obviously don't buy much lumber ... again, see first above!

Learn the proper terminology and none of this crap, and particularly your pedantic bullshit , is necessary.

[Doug Miller]

Sorry, but that's not correct. Specifying surfaced lumber will get you something that has been planed, but not jointed. If you want it jointed, it

*is* necessary to say so.

See above. You have it backwards. Normal procedure at a lumberyard is that they will *plane* it. If you want it jointed, you need to specify that.

More than you, apparently, or at least I pay more attention to what I'm buying. Again... see first above!!

Speaking of bullshit ... You're not in much of a position to be criticising me for my use of terminology, when I'm using it correctly and *you* have it backwards. S2S means it's been *planed* on two sides. Not jointed.

You can learn the proper terminology here:

down to the bottom, to the list of "Lumber Grading Terms".

[Swingman]

Not at all ... and it's pretty damned apparent that doing so is precisely is what got the OP such unsatisfactory results in the first place.

criticising me

An attempt at defensive obfuscation on your part?

My EXACT quote: "S2S lumber is, by definition, surfaced (planed) on two faces and both edges are rough."

Once again, it is NOT necessary to specify "jointing" when buying S2S lumber. If you have to, you need to find a decent place to buy hardwoods.

And forego trying to find web pages to back you up ... what you really need is a trip to a hardwood lumber yard that mills lumber to spec to show you the error in your misconceptions.

[George]

Neat thing about standards is they're published. S1S, S2S, S1E, _S2S1E_ and so forth are all accepted standards.

"Jointed" is not in the nomenclature. Not that your yard (wo)man will comprehend, of course. At least one poster in this thread is adamantly ignorant of the meaning....

[Doug Miller]

You're still confused. What got the OP unsatisfactory results is thinking that S2S meant jointed one face and one edge.

No, an attempt to show you where you're going astray by clarifying the terms. "Jointed" and "planed" are not synonymous.

Exactly. Planed. That does NOT mean jointed.

I said it was necessary to specify jointing if you wanted jointing. If you specify S2S, you're going to get *planing". You're NOT going to get jointing. And that means you're going to get wood that *needs* jointing.

I have plenty of "decent places" to buy hardwoods... and I haven't yet found even *one* board in any of them that was dead flat, with no detectable bow, twist, or cup. Perhaps you think you have... but that says more about your standards for picking lumber than it says about the yards where I buy mine.

In other words, forego trying to find web pages that show that you're mistaken...

The misconceptions here are _entirely_ on your part and not mine. They apparently include the totally erroneous notion that S2S lumber is not in need of jointing -- a misconception that will not be held long by anyone who spends any time at all in a lumber yard and pays attention to the stock there. S2S lumber has been planed smooth, with both faces parallel -- but it has NOT been jointed flat.