Jointer expectations from the mill?

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This question is somewhat rhetorical, but I'd like some confirmation that I'm not just being anal.
I picked out some lumber from the mill for the first time last week and went to pick it up today. I had it jointed (S2S) as I don't have a Jointer, just a Planer. They seemed a little surprised that I didn't want it planed, perhaps that partly explains the results. I had a quick look when I picked it up today, but did not spend too much time (obviously) checking it over. I just examined all the boards (6'*6" roughly) and there's only one or two faces that are smooth, 4 or 5 with deepish mill marks, another 3 or 4 with divots from not being flattened enough. Then there's the one that you almost can't tell the jointed face from the un-jointed face. The edges don't look bad, except for one with a bad split.
Should I expect these to be jointed for flatness AND smoothness? Can I assume that they expected to plane the marks out of the jointed faces? I know the real answer is to return these for a redo, but can I plane both sides to clean these up? Assuming they are actually flat, which is questionable in a couple of cases.
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Bill Stock wrote:

S2S is surfaced two sides, so you're not on the same page there...
I'm certainly not surprised they were suprised as it makes very little sense to joint an edge before you have flat and parallel surfaces as they're not going to be of much use one you surface a side and plane it.
In reality, you at least should have had them at least do 1S before doing any edges, then you could plane to thickness having a smooth surface to start from. You really should do that to start with anyway to get the two surface faces parallel to each other.
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You would never edge plane without first face planing; you would just have to do it over again. S2S refers only to planing, not jointing.
Edge jointing will always be flat and smooth. Face jointing might not be. It is easier to plane than to joint, so you can just joint enough to be sure the face is straight and will be stable in the planer.
If this doesn't answer your question, please try to explain just what you had done to what.
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Thanks, I thought the two sides referred to the Edge and the Face.

Yes, edges look good, faces not so much. I guess the varying quality depends on the original "quality" of the board.
I thought the sequence was Joint Face, Joint Edge, Plane opposite face and Rip opposite Edge. I didn't realize I had to Plane the first Face again.
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The important thing is that you face joint before edge joint. It doesn't really matter if you plane before or after edge jointing. If they did those, you are in good shape. As long as the face is flat, straight, and square to the edge, a few irregularities will come out in the planer.
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Bill Stock wrote:

Joint face one so that it's stable against the bottom of the planer.
Plane face two flat.
Flip board and plane face one flat using face two as the reference, if possible. Sometimes, there isn't enough wood to get two perfect faces. The imperfect face can be used where it dosen't show. Plan ahead to get the face you want flat if it looks like you can't have both.
Edge joint.
Rip to width.
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"B A R R Y" wrote in message

<snip>
This has gotten awfully bogged down in methodology for someone who professedly doesn't own a _necessary_ tool (jointer) in the first place.
From his description, including the blurb "They seemed a little surprised that I didn't want it planed", it appears that what happened is the yard gave him exactly what he asked for ... rough lumber, run over a jointer.
Totally usele$$ for all practical purposes ... they're probably still scratching their heads on that one.
What the OP REALLY wants, being without a jointer, is S2S1E ... that way he can rip the opposite edge to the desired width and use his planer to plane for the desired thickness.
It is really very simple when everyone involved in the transaction speaks the same language. ;)
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Which is why he wanted the lumber yard to joint it...

How do you figure that's useless? If he has a planer, and doesn't have a jointer, then that's exactly what he'd want: jointed, but not planed.

Well, no, not quite -- if he orders wood S2S1E without *also* specifying that it is to be jointed *too*, what he's going to get from most lumberyards is wood that's been planed two sides and straight-line ripped one edge, but not jointed anywhere.

Quite so -- thus the importance of specifying "jointed" if that's what you need.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Not necessary to specify when ordering surfaced lumber.

See above ...

he
plane
that
not
You obviously don't buy much lumber ... again, see first above!

Learn the proper terminology and none of this crap, and particularly your pedantic bullshit , is necessary.
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Sorry, but that's not correct. Specifying surfaced lumber will get you something that has been planed, but not jointed. If you want it jointed, it *is* necessary to say so.

See above. You have it backwards. Normal procedure at a lumberyard is that they will *plane* it. If you want it jointed, you need to specify that.

More than you, apparently, or at least I pay more attention to what I'm buying. Again... see first above!!

Speaking of bullshit ... You're not in much of a position to be criticising me for my use of terminology, when I'm using it correctly and *you* have it backwards. S2S means it's been *planed* on two sides. Not jointed.
You can learn the proper terminology here: http://www.theworkbench.com/guide.php Scroll down to the bottom, to the list of "Lumber Grading Terms".
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
"Swingman" wrote:

place.
it
Not at all ... and it's pretty damned apparent that doing so is precisely is what got the OP such unsatisfactory results in the first place.

criticising me

An attempt at defensive obfuscation on your part?
My EXACT quote: "S2S lumber is, by definition, surfaced (planed) on two faces and both edges are rough."
Once again, it is NOT necessary to specify "jointing" when buying S2S lumber. If you have to, you need to find a decent place to buy hardwoods.
And forego trying to find web pages to back you up ... what you really need is a trip to a hardwood lumber yard that mills lumber to spec to show you the error in your misconceptions.
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Neat thing about standards is they're published. S1S, S2S, S1E, _S2S1E_ and so forth are all accepted standards. www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch05.pdf "Jointed" is not in the nomenclature. Not that your yard (wo)man will comprehend, of course. At least one poster in this thread is adamantly ignorant of the meaning....
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"George" wrote in message

and
You are indeed correct ... "JTD" designates "jointed" stock, but refers to "finger jointed", or otherwise joined stock, not in the sense it is being used/misused in this thread.

No shit!
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You still haven't figured out which one of us it is.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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You're still confused. What got the OP unsatisfactory results is thinking that S2S meant jointed one face and one edge.

No, an attempt to show you where you're going astray by clarifying the terms. "Jointed" and "planed" are not synonymous.

Exactly. Planed. That does NOT mean jointed.

I said it was necessary to specify jointing if you wanted jointing. If you specify S2S, you're going to get *planing". You're NOT going to get jointing. And that means you're going to get wood that *needs* jointing.
I have plenty of "decent places" to buy hardwoods... and I haven't yet found even *one* board in any of them that was dead flat, with no detectable bow, twist, or cup. Perhaps you think you have... but that says more about your standards for picking lumber than it says about the yards where I buy mine.

In other words, forego trying to find web pages that show that you're mistaken...

The misconceptions here are _entirely_ on your part and not mine. They apparently include the totally erroneous notion that S2S lumber is not in need of jointing -- a misconception that will not be held long by anyone who spends any time at all in a lumber yard and pays attention to the stock there. S2S lumber has been planed smooth, with both faces parallel -- but it has NOT been jointed flat.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

need
spends
S2S
been
LOL! Doug, Doug ... fercrisksakes, _you_ really would benefit from spending less time behind that keyboard and more woodworking.
"Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't own jointers, or don't want to have to. You do NOT have to specify that it be "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry standards/practices.
Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in listening to your misconceptions.
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And *you* would benefit a lot from thinking before you speak. If you had done that in this thread, for example, you wouldn't have made yourself look so silly as you have with your repeated insistence that S2S lumber doesn't need jointing.

I see you're still confused.
I imagine most S2S stock is sold to people who not only don't own jointers, but don't even know what a jointer is for. S2S stock still needs to be jointed before it will be flat, whether the purchasers want to or not -- or whether they know it, or not. And if you "don't want to have to" joint your lumber, then you should buy it already jointed. Note that S2S does not mean "already jointed".

Like I said, the misconceptions are totally on your part, and not mine. S2S lumber has two faces smooth and parallel, but those faces are not necessarily flat. If you think they are, then you need to use a better definition of "flat" when selecting your lumber.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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:> jointed flat.
: LOL! Doug, Doug ... fercrisksakes, _you_ really would benefit from spending : less time behind that keyboard and more woodworking.
You've got a lot of chutzpah for someone who's dead wrong on this.
: "Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't own : jointers, or don't want to have to.
Actually, a lot of it is sold to people who don't know what a jointer is, nor care. If you're putting up some shelves in the garage to hold stuff, you might not care (or notice) that a board has some twist, or cup, to it. If you're a carpenter and puting up soffits, you probbaly don't care that the boards aren't the flat you get from a jointer.
And a lot of S2S is sold to people who simply aren't near a mill. I have several excellent hardwood suppliers within driving distance, but I can't buy rough lumber from them -- they don't buy it.
You do NOT have to specify that it be : "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry standards/practices.
: Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in listening : to your misconceptions.
You are really, really confused. everything Doug Miller has said in this thread is completely correct, and much of what you've said is plain ignorant. (I wouldn't put it so bluntly, but you've also been pretty arrogant in your condescending responses to Doug's posts.)
S2s is run through a planer to get the wood smooth, and have its faces be parallel to each other. That is NOT necessarily flat.
    -- Andy Barss
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"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
Obviously you're still trying to make up for the ostriches, eh Andrew ... give it up, that rarified air in academia is not up to the task.

own
nor care.
Read it again ... then read what you parroted.

not
aren't
And that proves what?

standards/practices.
listening
What, in saying that you don't have to specify "jointing" when purchasing S2S1E lumber?
Once again, it is simply NOT necessary!

No one said it was ... you have to be smart enough to leave what's not at the lumber yard, something the two of you haven't snapped to.
Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go fuck yourself.
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Not if you don't *want* it jointed, anyway... If you *do* want it jointed, though, you'd better say so, or it won't be.

No, what *you* haven't "snapped to" is that the lumber you are buying is *not* dead flat like lumber that comes off of a jointer. If you *think* it is, then you need to raise your standards for picking lumber... or get your eyes checked.

Amazing.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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