Garden Gate -- mortise and tenon and sagging

Page 1 of 2  

I am building a garden gate and my design prevents me from using a diagonal brace. I am planning on using mortise and tenon joinery (with pins) for the frame. (The design is somethig like this: http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/g_98.htm .) The gate will be quite heavy (46" x72") and the frame will be 2x6 cedar.
My question is: Are glued and pinned mortise and tenon joints enough to prevent sag? Has anyone built a heavy gate using mortise and tenon joinery who can tell me how they hold up?
Secondly, what if there was a diagonal brace only on the bottom half of the gate? (The top portion will be lattice.) Would that serve the same purpose, or does a diagonal brace have to go all the way across the gate? I really don't want any diagonal brace at all, but I might be willing to compromise design for structural integrity.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Bert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I would build the bottom section as it's own gate and but the diagonal support in, then build your lattice section on the top. In the end it will be one gate, but really the bottom gate will be doing all the work.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks for the ideas. But is the diagonal absolutely necessary? I've seen a lot of professional ones online without the diagonal. How do those avoid the sagging issue?
Bert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I used a cable from the top end by the henges to the lower end on the other side it worked well and cost me about $2 at Lowes.
Al

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I would build it one of two ways. My preferred method would be to insert a 3/8" all-thread in the top and bottom sections via a hole drilled through the styles and rail. I would insert plugs to hide the nuts and washers. Second method would make the rails as wide as design permits and use a large mortise and tenon joints glued with epoxyed.
Dave
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

using m&t joinery. The gates are 48" wide by 72" tall. The joints are not pinned. I glued the joints with Gorilla Glue. They are 4 years old and haven't sagged yet. The stiles and rails are 2X6 and the panels are 3/4" stock.
I put headers across the gate posts to prevent the posts from leaning.
I can post a pdf file of the drawing on abpw news group if you want to see it.
I don't think your gate needs the diagonal if you use m&t joints.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I work with a guy who insists that the diagonal run from the top hinge to the bottom outer corner.
Is there any consensus on why one or the other is preferable? It seems to me that a triangle is a triangle is a triangle, and as long as one side of the triangle connects the two hinges, the choice of whether the other end is up or down is arbitrary.
What say you?
Scott Cramer
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Draw up both planeforms. If you can visualize forces, it will become obvious. Phisherman is right.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

'Planeform' is not a word found in any online dictionary that I can find. Googling 'planeform' gets fewer that 400 hits, none of which seems apposite. Care to expatiate?
Scott
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Yes, I misspelled it. Planform.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
My well be two words. Don't recall ever seeing it written. Means layout.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If you had said plan view, we all would have known what you were talking about. :-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Probably, but that is not what I meant.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Is planform a term used in the aero-space industry? It's not a common term used in the petro-chemical industry. When I Googled it, I got airplane wings. :-) No matter how long I've been in the workforce, there's always something new to learn.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I never thought about it being industry specific but, I have been building heavy jets for over 15 years.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And I've been involved with the oil patch and petrochemical industries since the 1950's. I never heard the term before, but like I said, I run across something new all the time.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I agree with about everything said in this string, but we are not talking about bank vault doors. The design Bert referred to has two stiles and four rails, with the two bottom panels having captive pickets in them. The two picket panels will resist tension and compression providing diagonal bracing. If the pickets were long, they wouldn't be adequate. (Colonial style raised panel wooden doors didn't have diagonals in them, the panels provided the stiffening needed. Cross buck doors did have diagonals.)
Western red cedar is not a heavy wood. My experience is that with good solid m&t joints, the gate will be stiff. I've built two similar gates that are four years old at my daughter's house, and they just don't sag. I would make the top and bottom rail go the full width of the gate to prevent the stiles from trying to bend at the connection with the rails. The two intermediate rails would join to the interior sides of the stiles. I did use three strap hinges on each gate, which helps in minimizing sag. The hinges are located at the rails and are through bolted with carriage bolts.
I've had good luck with buying rough cedar 2X6's and planing them to 1 1/2" thickness, providing a smooth surface. Wear a dust mask when making sawdust.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If the diagonals are equal then the gate is square. Thus unless the joints fail it shouldn't matter which diagonal you put it on.
It should still work if you are only bracing the bottom half. If the bottom half is kept square it follows the top half can't sag. But I would run the brace from the lower hinge to the outer middle so that you aren't applying a force to the middle of the inner side of the gate. Or put a third hinge there.
-Leuf
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com entity posted thusly:

Is it a matter of appearance that is causing you to not want a diagonal? Personally, I rather like a diagonal for both rigidity and appearance, but if you don't, how about using thinner stock in the center decorative part, and run a diagonal internally? In other words, the diagonal is sandwiched between the vertical pieces in the bottom half of the gate.
I always put the diagonal from the top hinge to the swinging outer corner.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Which is typically strong enough.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.