I have to thank who ever it was that posted the message about this guy. I found a couple of his videos (yes, real live tapes, lol) and he is absolutley amazing. Watching him make hand cut dovetails for a drawer with only the carcass for measurments astounded me.
Thanks again for the post.
Neil Larson
So if you saw the video I'm guessing you've bought it, you'll never get everything he shows you on that tape in one, two or even three viewings. So, with these pages on the bench you can have a handcut dovetailed drawer in about an hour the first time. Don't worry if the dovetails aren't perfect - the drawer will still hold together - without glue. MAKE SURE YOU MARK THE WASTE AREAS - it's really, really easy to get cutting and chopping and take out what should stay and leave what should be removed. DAMHIKT ; )
LOL! Made some "shovetails" while practicing last night. Marking with an "x" is helpful, but anyone who thinks that is a foolproof method sadly underestimates me as a fool!
Klausz video, and now have some questions/sugggestions. Will email some, but want to ask one in this public forum in case anyone else can shed light on it.
When I first saw the advice in Charlie's pages to cut from the inside of the drawer, my reaction was "okay, this is probably an area where Charlie is deviating from Klausz, since Charlie uses a Japanese saw, and cutting from the inside means that the "clean side" of the cut will be on the show face. But now that I have the video, I see that Klausz is using a western saw but cutting from the inside. He doesn't explain it. Anyone know why he does this? I can think of at least a couple of reasons to saw from the show face when using a western saw:
1) Tearout, while minimal, will be in the inside. 2) The most critical fit will be the outside, and it's easier to follow a line you see (remember, Klausz doesn't use the mirror trick or mark out the perpendicular line across the end-grain, but just counts on his eye to saw perpendicular to the face.)
Beta testers trying to idiot proof their software loved me and I've come up with amazing ways to screw up. With software you can just reboot. With woodworking - well lets say it can involve the loss of blood.
Much appreciated. What's clear to me may not be clear to someone else. What I assume everyone knows and isn't worth noting is exactly what I'm trying to avoid with the instructions. Better to have too much info than leave out something important/critical. So any suggestions to improve the instructions are welcomed. My e-mail has been acting up for a couple of days so if I don't get back to you within a day or two from when you sent me something post it here and I'll get it.
Interesting question. When I was doing the instructions based on the Klausz video I didn't question Why, I was focusing on What and How.
So - start with the saw - western vs japanese - push vs pull and where tear out/split out might occur. The western saw has fewer teeth per inch than the japanese saw and simple teeth - one bevel cutting edge, while the japanese saw has a multi-edged tooth and multiple bevel cutting edges. The western saw has to be thicker than the japanese saw because when cutting it's in compression rather than in tension like the japanese.
The handle of a western saw encourages grabbing it like your life depended on holding on to it and pushing it down and through the wood, brute forcing it through. (If you grab it like you're holding a baby's hand and let it do what it's designed to do it works a whole lot better). Japanese saw handles don't let you use a death grip and and don't lend themselves to pushing the saw down into the wood. The western saw teeth have more set than the japanese saw and because western saw kerf is wider than a japanese saw it's more prone to tear out on the the far side of the cut, the japanese saw on the near side of the cut and, if it happens, is more like the "wire" you get on a cutting edge hile you sharpen it.
So it comes down to the affect on the outside, visible part of the joint. But we're talking about cutting the pins and using the "pins first, mark the tails from the pins method". The pin layout lines are approximate locations, not critical locations. What IS important is that the front and back (inside and outside) are 1. straight and square to the end of the board 2. stop at the scribe lines for the bottom of the sockets on BOTH faces.
I think his pins face orientation is about his Monkey Story and YOU are the Nut. The Monkey Story reminds you that the inside of the pin socket should be narrower than the outside of the pin socket and on the inside of the drawer.
But you're absolutely right about the outside face being critical - to the look of the joint, not so much its function. Cutting passed the scribe line for the bottom of the socket on the inside ain't critical - on the outside it is.
Should probably change the instructions to have the outside of the pins facing you as you saw. Makes sense. Let's see if anyone else comes up with a good reason to saw facing the outside of the pins.
charlie b
Points made in emails:
Not on Klausz's video, but from painful experience. Step 9 middle of the page, in the parenthetical following "next turn the board over", I'd suggest adding. "Sweep the board and benchtop to make sure none of the chips removed in the previous step get clamped under the workpiece to mar it."
Mirror trick: You might want to point out that Klausz advocates holding the saw level and perpendicular to the face of the drawer, but for those without his years of experience, the mirror trick provides a way to keep aware of what is happening on the other side.
Page 13, penultimate paragraph, you initially say to drive the TAILS home with a wedge, but then in the next sentence talk about repeating on each PIN on all corners. Also, note typo on "drawer".
Another way I have seen this expressed is to pretend that you are holding a live bird, firm enough that it doesn't escape, but not to crush it. Jeff Gorman suggests an alternative grip to "enforce" this more relaxed grip.
Don't disagree with anything you have said above (except for the tendency for tearout). But I think the preference for western versus Japanese style saw is highly subjective, and could devolve into a religious discussion, so I'd suggest limiting this to your tools section. Nothing in the rest of the write-up is dependent on that choice. I personally like the western style, although it is harder to learn, and getting acceptable results for modest dollars is a problem.
But if I'm not mistaken, Klausz also saws the tails from the inside.
This story did nothing for me. I find it much easier to just think of the mechanics of how the joint locks. But different strokes...
One other thought. This video is "Dovetail a Drawer", and Klausz uses white pine, a very compressible wood. I wonder if his technique is the same if he is making dovetails for a show surface of a carcass, out of a hard wood.
Good idea. Added
Mr. Klausz's recomendation added
Typo fixed.
When tapping the joint to seat it, you can use a softer wood which will dent if the opposing part of the joint seats a little high
Regarding the monkey story - it was included because Mr. Klausz uses it in the video and it's The Monkey And The Banana (not nut). It's just a way of remembering which face of the front and back parts have the pins' narrow part of the socket for the tails. Added an illustration which may help a little
charlie b
line up with the line, and cut. You pay attention to those details, you have no problem." Easy for him to say!!
I don't think the revised page got uploaded to your site. still says "pins" and "crawer"
Understood. I was not criticizing the story or your presentation of it, just commenting on different learning styles of different people; with this not being on that worked for ME.
Apple in the DVD I have, although I think banana makes more sense.
This is an enhancement to the explanation. Not the way I will remember the direction, but others probably will.
Yep, except that the new page 13 didn't get uploaded.
And re-viewing, I think I see a reason (though not compelling in my mind) for working from the inside. And it is one aspect of the process not caught in your write-up. That is putting the first half pin BELOW the groove for the bottom, so that the groove shows in the front, where it ill be covered by the applied drawer front. Similarly, in cutting tails at the back of the drawer sides, there should be a vertical cut at the top of the groove, where the bottom of the half pin at the back will go. Effectively, there is a rectangular "tail" at the bottom of the drawer at back.
Also Chips and sawdust thus clamped earlier during layout can also cause misalignments.
I finally got around to having some time in the shop simply to play today.
So I got some scrap and laid it out the way Frank does. And put it in my mind that I'll make a dovetail a day until they work the way I want them to.
I'm not expecting that I'll make a joint as good as Frank does - that's not the point. What I do expect to do is get a joint that I'm happy with and that I'll be proud to show.
While I was dinkiing round with today's joint, I found myself thinking: yaknow, the depth would be a lot easier to control with a straight bit in the router. Yes it would, for both the pins and the tails. And shit, I've got that monster just sitting there. Plus it would be a helluva lot faster. Why not?
Because that's also not the point.
So then, what is the point? I think charlie was alluding to it all the way through the previous thread on dovetails and Klausz. Yes, it can be done with a router. Yes it will be consistent and fast. (The downside to fast is that you can f*ck up fast too.)
I see this as a two-sided goal. One is to get the satisfaction of doing something properly by hand that has been done by hand for hundreds of years. The other is to speed up the process. Today's joint took me a long time, and in the end it really wasn't very good. The next one should be a bit faster and hopefully a bit better in fit.
There's something else, beyond satisfaction and speed. It's going to teach me to slow down some, think more about what I'm doing and do one single task the right way.
Thanks charlie.
Tanus
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