Can improper wiring actually cause a fire?

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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:25:15 +0000, Mike wrote:

So you use screws to splice three wires together? That's downright scary.
As for your gas tight crimps, those things are so dependent on your calibrated tool that they ought to be outlawed. Talk about a fire hazard.
Oh, and your beer sucks.
--
--John
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Mike wrote:

You want an argument, change the subject.
Lew
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:30:13 GMT, Lew Hodgett

You want a properly engineered electrical installation, emigrate :)
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:27:28 +0000, Mike wrote:

And you have yet to explain to us what you use wherever you live to serve the function served in the US by wire nuts.
--
--John
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I agree. They are not used because they are the best. They are used because they are the least they can get away with.
.

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I'm curious about what you consider an acceptable alternative.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - snipped-for-privacy@charm.net
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snipped-for-privacy@fellspt.charm.net wrote:
> I'm curious about what you consider an acceptable alternative.
Depends on the application and type of conductors involved.
Lew
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Lew? I didn't realize you were the OP. Anyway, here's a specific example, tell me what you would use in the place of wire nuts:
Ceiling junction box with light fixture attached, power coming directly to the that box, with a switch loop going to a wall mounted switch. Using regular NM (Romex) cabling.
How would you connect the line neutral to the light fixture neutral,the line hot to the switch loop, and the return from the switch loop to the light fixture hot conductor?
--
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Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - snipped-for-privacy@charm.net
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snipped-for-privacy@fellspt.charm.net wrote:
> Lew? I didn't realize you were the OP. Anyway, here's a specific > example, tell me what you would use in the place of wire nuts: > > Ceiling junction box with light fixture attached, power coming directly > to the that box, with a switch loop going to a wall mounted switch. > Using regular NM (Romex) cabling. > > How would you connect the line neutral to the light fixture > neutral,the line hot to the switch loop, and the return from the > switch loop to the light fixture hot conductor?
What you are describing is the classic application for which the wirenut was designed to solve.
Namely, the joining of a solid conductor (Romex) and a stranded pigtail (the lighting fixture).
It is not a particularly good long term connection; however, there are some conditions in this application that minimize future problems.
1) There is very little chance of vibration impacting the wirenut termination.
2) The load is probably 600 watts or less so long term heat build up as a result of a high resistance connection is minimized.
About the only possible alternate to a wirenut that is economically viable would be a butt splice connector which would be totally dependent on being able to make a proper mechanical crimp on a solid conductor, something I'm not qualified to comment on, but would refer to the splice manufacturer.
Lew
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OK... Are you saying that you WOULD use a wirenut in this case? :)
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - snipped-for-privacy@charm.net
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snipped-for-privacy@fellspt.charm.net wrote:

If I was on the clock, probably.
If it was for myself, probably not (I like solder and shrink tubing).
Lew
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Solder and shrink tubing are considered less safe than wire nuts for power wiring because they will both fail at relatively low elevated temperatures. A wire nut will continue to hold the wires tightly together until the wires get so hot that the insulation burns off of them. Wire nuts have been used safely and successfully in the electrical industry for over 75 years. The only place that I would not use them is in high vibration areas of machinery as they will shake loose over time. Split nuts or crimped on ring lugs that are bolted together and then heavily insulated with rubber tape followed by a layer of plastic tape is the solution for these locations such as motor connections, etc. Solder and shrink tubing is great for low current control circuits, but not for power.
--
Charley


"Lew Hodgett" < snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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The insulation will burn off long before they get hot enough to melt solder, too.
The shrink tubing would be a Code violation unless it's specifically listed for use at the voltage and amperage of the circuit involved.

Apparently not in the UK :-)
[snip]

The National Electrical Code permits soldered joints, but requires them to be both mechanically and electrically secure *without* the solder. Nothing wrong with using solder in power wiring -- it just can't be the *only* thing holding the junction together.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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<...snipped...>

I'm being somewhat facetious here, but what exactly is the benefit of adding the solder here?
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - snipped-for-privacy@charm.net
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snipped-for-privacy@fellspt.charm.net () wrote:

solder helps with the movement of DC power thru the wires. It actually can hinder the movement of AC since AC moves on the surface of the wire.
If you do a good job with the wire nut (I highly recommend use of wire nuts to join wires running AC power) then solder is not recommended in any way. The use of Solder pre-dates the creation of wire nuts. I typically find it in high end houses from the late 1930's to the early 1950's.
Normally because it is a dissimilar metal to the wire itself, there is corrosion in the joint where it is used, when we take the joints apart.
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I thought that effect occurred only at higher frequencies, in the neighborhood of 400Hz and up -- i.e. at 60Hz, AC is still moving mostly inside the conductor. No?
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

I just refreshed what I used to know about skin effect by reading the wikipedia article about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect). The executive summary is that for 60Hz, current flows in the outer 8mm of a conductor. This means that for a solid wire anything less than 16mm diameter (a bit heavier than 6/0 AWG), skin effect can be ignored. It's certainly a total non-issue for the sizes of wire likely to be found in your house.
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Thanks -- that's kinda what I thought, but I wasn't sure I was remembering that right.
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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At 60Hz, skin effect is not a consideration.
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Doug Houseman wrote:

DC also moves on surface of the wire because the free electrons all reside on the surface of a conductor. Solder can help by making that surface continuous all around the circuit.
DC cannot 'jump' across a gap unless it arcs. AC can, which is why 'blocking' capacitors prevent DC from flowing around an AC circuit.
--

FF


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