Wind turbines - can be DIY made?

[David Hansen]

On 5 Oct 2006 08:34:18 GMT someone who may be "Bob Eager" wrote this:-

And the monks at Fort Augustus provided a public supply from a hydro plant in ISTR the 1880s.

[David Hansen]

On 5 Oct 2006 08:28:44 GMT someone who may be Huge wrote this:-

One could say the same sort of thing about many things people install, like double glazing. That does not mean it is not worth doing for other reasons.

Saving is better and cheaper than extra capacity.

[Chris]

Its your religion not mine.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:48:16 +0100 someone who may be tony sayer wrote this:-

Some do. The problem then becomes what to do with any excess electricity. Batteries are expensive and bulky and have a host of environmental problems associated with them. One could heat a thermal store. An alternative is to use the external system as, in effect, a battery.

Note also that, done properly, wind installations stabilise the local electricity system to some extent. This was extensively studied around the first commercial wind installation at Delabole, which it is worth remembering is nearing its 15th birthday. The effect of the wind farm was to stabilise the local system, with the result that the tap changers in the area operated far less often.

[manatbandq]

Well, obviously, but define "some" as a proportion of total potential capacity?

Its a useful way to generate _some_ electricity. The problem is in the way that the green zealot are trying to force it upon us whilst conveniently ignoring all the problems.

"up to" being the crucial weasel words. A local shop has a sale with "up to" 50% off. What does it really mean? If we give over 20% of our supply to wind power, how much conventional capacity do we need to keep on-line as cover for when the wind isn't blowing? How much total potential wind capacity would we need to build to get that 20% when only a few can actually operate during calm weather?

MBQ

[Andy Hall]

Hardly. Just an observation. If you feel that it applies, then that is really your issue.

Both of which are easily addressed. Duplicate the link from France is an obvious one.

So build some more schemes like Dinorwic. This was originally intended to store energy produced by Wylfa and Trawsfynydd.

[nightjar]

That was the primary reason why it was not permitted when I was in the electricity supply industry. Loss of revenue was a secondary consideration, although not a very important one in the days of Nationalisation. We were capped at 2% profit and the main problem facing the accountants was making sure we didn't go over that. They even cut prices to stay within the cap, upon occasion.

Colin Bignell

[Tony Bryer]

There are other reasons for double glazing, such as improved comfort and (possibly) reduced maintenance. What other reasons are there for buying a wind turbine other than saving money: if the answer is saving the planet, then there are much better ways of using the money - buy a condensing boiler for your elderly neighbour!

[David Hansen]

On 5 Oct 2006 04:22:08 -0700 someone who may be "Chris" wrote this:-

It is a good job you put the word probably into your incorrect assertion.

This tired old assertion is trotted out by the anti lobby, but it remains a myth no matter how often it is trotted out.

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How long does it take for a turbine to 'pay back' the energy used to manufacture it?

The comparison of energy used in manufacture with the energy produced by a power station is known as the 'energy balance'. It can be expressed in terms of energy 'pay back' time, i.e. as the time needed to generate the equivalent amount of energy used in manufacturing the wind turbine or power station.

The average wind farm in the UK will pay back the energy used in its manufacture within six to eight months, this compares favourably with coal or nuclear power stations, which take about six months.

contestant please.

[Chris]

Was actually referring to the ones in B&Q I have no doubt that commerical wind farms are viable.

[Steve Firth]

I stared at it in disbelief. I bought 2x 20 tube units recently at £400 per panel. B&Q are having a laugh selling flat panels at that price.

[Andy Hall]

The discussion is about the toy ones from B&Q, not the ugly industrial windmills polluting the landscape.

[Steve Firth]

Hmm, Godalming is cited as the first British location to have a public electricity supply in 1881 using a dynamo provided by Siemens. I believe I've mentioned this before.

It was remarkably early, since Swan only installed electric lighting at Cragside in 1880 and Benwell Lamps did not start to manufacture Swan bulbs until 1881.

The Godalming scheme ran power into private homes, shops and street lighting using a mix of Swan bulbs and arc lighting.

The porrage eating monks were Johnny-come-latelies not getting around to generating electricity until 1890.

will note from this page that the Scots came second in generating HEP (to Godalming) and that the monks were well down the list of achievers.

[Steve Firth]

Since the discussion is not about wind farms would you like to try again?

The discussion is about a B&Q device costing £1500 for 1kW of installed capacity. Now admittedly sale price does not reflect energy input, but the average punter isn't going to see payback at that price.

[David Hansen]

On 5 Oct 2006 05:00:09 -0700 someone who may be [e-mail] wrote this:-

I'm glad you accept that. Not everyone does.

The answer is not a soundbite. Electrical suppliers model their systems using complex statistical techniques which attempt to model the supply and demand of electricity. Matching these two involves a variety of types of plant.

For integrating wind there are two time periods which particularly matter in the UK electricity system. The first is an hour or so ahead. Wind forecasts are already highly accurate over this time period and the mismatch between forecast and actual output is small, even when looking at an individual wind farm.

The second time period is the next few days. Wind forecasts are obviously not as accurate over this time period, but they are accurate enough to see how much wind is likely to be available and thus to rearrange other forms of generation as necessary. For example if wind speeds are going to be low then it gives time to wind up some superannuated plant and ensure other plant is likely to be available for example by curtailing minor maintenance.

has a fairly detailed report on the subject for those who are interested. It is not a five minute read, but it will answer a lot of questions.

If only "green zealots" were that powerful:-)

Which are in your opinion?

They are not weasel words at all. Up to 20% (or so) of total generation the cost of incorporating wind generation is small. Above that one has to modify the electrical system in more expensive ways so that, at current prices, it becomes uneconomic. 20% is not a magic figure plucked out of thin air, there has been a lot of work done on the subject.

All forms of electrical generation can fail and need to be backed up. One of the good things about wind is that the wind doesn't suddenly stop blowing and because of the distributed nature of wind farms failure of a line does not knock out much generation. Thus it is easier to accommodate on the network than some other forms of generation involving small numbers of large stations.

Up to 20% any extra backup, over and above that already provided for other forms of generation, is negligible. Above 20% rising amounts of backup are one of the reasons costs rise.

See the report for some information on this.

There are currently 135 wind projects with 1726 turbines operational according to

ranging from large sites such as Black Law to individual turbines.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:02:04 GMT someone who may be EricP wrote this:-

Any evidence to back up your assertion?

[David Hansen]

On 5 Oct 2006 05:48:53 -0700 someone who may be "Chris" wrote this:-

That doesn't alter the fact that the energy used to make them will be recovered, except in the strangest of circumstances.

Obviously it is likely that such turbines will not be ideally situated in many cases and they will not be as efficient at converting wind into electricity as a large turbine. Thus it is likely that they will take longer to recover the energy used to make them, let's say a year to be generous.

That is an energy balance however. A financial balance is a different thing. I expect that, as with almost anything else, the early adopters will have other reasons for purchase and that the result of their purchases will be to drive the cost down.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:42:35 +0100 someone who may be Tony Bryer wrote this:-

It is one way of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. There are other ways too, but it is not an either or thing.

[Roger]

The message from David Hansen contains these words:

No so. It was a statement of fact. However your remark above that prompted mine does rank as abuse, abuse to all those fair minded folk who can see through your squalid little ruse.

More obfuscation. Some doesn't have to be very much at all and at the other end of the scale there are wind speeds that should prevent any generation whatsoever.

You don't consider wind turbines as expensive changes to the electrical system? No, of course not, just plant the turbine seedling and it will grow into a fully functioning generator under the influence of nothing more than water and sunlight.

More personal abuse.

Of all the forms of 'free' energy wind is the least deserving of any support. As you mention below hydro is already well established and in the hillier parts of the UK it has much more scope for domestic use at lower cost and much greater reliability. Tides are 100% reliable and tidal power has the scope to dwarf the puny output of wind farms. And even wave power is a better bet than wind power.

That is no justification for claiming my statement was incorrect. You need to think a little more deeply about what you are responding to.

I would be very interested to see a list of all those "many times a year" failures that you claim hydro stations are protecting us from.

Incidentally while hydro schemes may indeed help in the event of a very occasional major emergency at a large conventional power station wind power would be a very uncertain element to rely on in any emergency.

[Bob Eager]

I was really referring to a single, private house.