Wind turbines - can be DIY made?

[Chris]

Two short planks spring immediatly to mind.

[Andy Hall]

If there were enough, that might be true. However, at £1500 this is not going to produce a significant sales volume.

It has taken legislation to introduce condensing boilers being virtually mandatory, and in that case there almost always is a clear financial gain.

Set against this backdrop, these toy windmills really don't stand much of a chance. £300 installed and they might be interesting as a curiosity to those with disposable income, but £1500 is a different discussion altogether.

The reality is that the vast majority of people are only eco-minded to the extent that it doesn't inconvenience them and solutions will stand up to financial justification.

[Roger]

The message from David Hansen contains these words:

I've no doubt said it before but I for one have no confidence in the judgement or indeed the probity of anyone who would claim that 6 to 8 months compares favourably to about 6 months unless of course the favourable outcome was 8 months.

[Huge]

Cragside in Northumberland, the home of Lord Armstrong, had hydro- electric lighting (and a lift!) in 1878.

The house is well worth a visit for all kinds of reasons, as well as the electrical stuff.

[Matt]

Yes they can, It's purely a mathematical exercise as it depends on how you rate them. Although not electricity generation related, the space shuttle main engines can for instance can produce 109% of their rated thrust.

The annual load factor on some UK coal/gas generation has certainly been above 90%, and I'd hazard a guess that some nuclear generation runs even higher - albeit in re-rated from the original design output due to engineering considerations, also a great many hydro plants run at as near as dammit 100%, the only time they are off the bars is for statutory testing of overspeed devices etc.

[Roger]

The message from David Hansen contains these words:

You are addressing the problem of making use of what little capacity is available, not how little that capacity is compared with the rated capacity.

[Guy King]

The message from Steve Firth contains these words:

/Alleged/ installed capacity.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:36:23 +0100 someone who may be Roger wrote this:-

Feel free to study the reports, should you wish to take it further and understand what they are saying before making comments on the subject.

Indeed. That was also considered in the same work. The work shows that over several decades there has never been a period when the wind all over the UK was too little or too great to generate some electricity. While the past doesn't always predict the future it can be very powerful evidence.

They are a generator. Like any other generator they need to be connected to the system and the costs of this vary from one site to another. From memory Black Law has a 33kV cable and overhead route to do this.

However, the sorts of expensive changes I am talking about are outlined in the reports for those who want to develop an understanding of the issues. Beyond 20% one would need to do things like add expensive equipment to keep the system stable. There is no engineering problem with far higher wind penetrations, but there is an economic one.

I don't recall suggesting that it was an either/or situation.

I have even been known to suggest that the "technology neutral" approach of ROCs needs to be modified to ensure that wind, which is with hydro the most mature, does not gobble up all the funds. Even government seems to have begun to realise this and is devoting some money to developing other renewables, at least until the piss it all away on nuclear again as is their intention.

I have given it. You have not rebutted what I said.

You think that I have a list of every failure of every power plant in the UK? Stop trolling.

However, should you wish to follow it up further the operators of Dinorwig are keen to state how often they start and stop the plant. Not all these are due to covering for failure, but some are.

They also cover a myriad of minor emergencies.

I don't recall suggesting that it can be started and stopped at will to deal with emergencies.

However, the need for wind turbines to be tolerant of faults on the system was recognised some years ago and work has been done on this to ensure that it can be relied upon in an emergency, rather than being disconnected at the first sign of trouble (which was the old policy of an industry generally not used to large numbers of small plants).

One of the major difficulties the electricity organisations face in coping with the 21st century is that, outwith the area of the former Hydro Board, people and institutions have little experience of anything other then a small number of large plants.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:03:12 +0100 someone who may be Guy King wrote this:-

And I'm quite sure that should you wish to study the product they will be able to supply the conditions under which the turbine will generate that output.

In general terms a wind turbine will start producing usable electricity above the cut-in wind speed. The output will then rise in a curve until the rated output is reached at a certain speed. Output will then remain constant until the shutdown speed. All fairly basic engineering.

[Mary Fisher]

er - who's trying to force it on you?

It seems to me that people who know little about it are knocking it at every opportunity.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:01:19 +0100 someone who may be Roger wrote this:-

Those who wish to study the subject further can follow the link and study the report.

[Mary Fisher]

:-)

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

More personal abuse.

[Mary Fisher]

Well done. Would that others did the same.

Indeed.

Mary

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:54:51 +0100 someone who may be Matt wrote this:-

So, compare the thrust that such engines could produce if run at

100%, or 109%, of their rated output for a year with what they actually produce. The difference between the two figures is due to many things, but there is a difference.

[Mary Fisher]

So you can't provide figures. I thought not.

I wonder what your problem with religion is - or with my ideas about conservation ...

>

[Chris]

I have no problem at all with conservation.

I'm merely suggesting that =A31600 is almost certainly better spent on something other than a noisy toy windmill.

[Mary Fisher]

I have no problem at all with conservation.

I'm merely suggesting that £1600 is almost certainly better spent on something other than a noisy toy windmill.

That's not what you said. you said:

"The fact that more energy is probably used manufacturing them than they will ever produce obviously isn't a consideration."

and I asked for authoritative figures which would show that.

Nothing has been said about toy windmills until now. You seem to be wriggling at the end of your line.

[Chris]

or bored @ work. Besides David produced figures in another post already proving my assertion was incorrect, I'm happy to believe those.

I still maintain, however, that the "toy windmills" aka B&Q wind turbines are a waste of money.

[Mary Fisher]

or bored @ work. Besides David produced figures in another post already proving my assertion was incorrect, I'm happy to believe those.

Careful - belief can lead to religion!

I still maintain, however, that the "toy windmills" aka B&Q wind turbines are a waste of money.

I probably would too but you were talking about *energy* used in manufacture which isn't the same thing at all.

We've looked carefully into wind powered energy production but decided that we weren't in the right location, in the inner city. We were told that first by a company which sells such systems when I asked for information. If we lived in the wilds of Wales, Scotland, Norfolk or anywhere hilly and not built up we'd do it like a shot. It would complement our solar water heating system splendidly :-)

It's not for every situation and I think that the systems should be obtained from specialist companies who know the subject inside out and not off the shelf at a supermarket.

Mary