victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?

Page 7 of 14  
IMM wrote:

Actually, I found one use for it.
I was driving my old XJS up to workshire with my daer old whte haired mum in teh passeneger seat.
She glanced across at teh rev counter and said 'are we doing 50 mph dear?' as she looked at the tacho on the 5000 RPM mark.
I will leave you to work out what 5,000RPM in top gear on an XJS was, in terms of road speed :-)
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IMM wrote:

Yes. Cars ARE in fact insulated very well. You only need to take a ride in e.g. my old series III landrover woith nowt but a sheet of aluminium between you and the elements to see how MUCH insulation a modern car has by comparison.
Most cars have something like 1/4" of fibre and carpet on teh floors, the rear seats line that part of the car, and the doors usually have a 2-4" aiorgap in them. Dreaughts are of necssity totally absent by and large, and roofs are normally lined with headlining and again about 1/4" of insulation. some cars even have double glazed windows.
Even with a U value of about 5 - equivalent to a totally single glazed car, and a square meterage area of - what - 16 sq meters of cabin, that is 80W per degree C differential, so AT WORST for -5 outside and 25C inside, it only needs 2.4Kw to heat it. In practice that is a fairly ludicrous U vcale, becaseu teh glass is thicker than window glass, and most of the cabin is well insulated.
Lets face it, a lining of 15mm celotex is not going to cost very much. And there is going to be a wedge of batteries and electronics under the floor kicking out a hundred watts. Getting heat from the motors - if thse are ouboard on the wheels - is not so easy, but even there, if wound with pipe istead of solid wire, the heat could be removed bu circulatng coolant through them..

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Rod Hewitt wrote:

The total power needed to run our car at - say - 30 mph, is about 5kW. At least 5% of that is likley to be wasted as heat - say 250W. That is potentially available to heat the car without losing anything.
I would not think that more than another 2-300W would be needed to heat the car in any circumstances. So yes, there is enough energy. Maybe the heater and/or aircon would knock the range down 20%, but it does that on a normal car anyway.

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IMM wrote:

Oh, I am sure it ouuld be triple insulated to latest building standards and heat by dint of the sun shining on it...

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"Nick wrote in message after me . .

those
No it's not! everything I've written above is true. Ignoring the data, if you simply look at the petrol consumption of ,say, a 1600cc car 30 years ago ( about 26mpg) and compare it with a modern engine ( about 40+mpg) you will find significant improvements in efficiency which also does relate to the pollution produced, even without catalists in the exhaust system. The fact that these modern cars also have much more inside them consuming power proves my point further. .

Probably due to the significant rise in the use of Diesel engines (in cars) which produce lots of small particules (soot) which get into our lungs and clog them up. Particle Traps are on their way to cure this problem, I think it's one of the French manufacturers that is already installing them. I too have developed Asthma in the last 10 years.

Nobody has pointed out a flaw at all, to me they just show they don't know about Fuel Cells, their possibilities, uses and how fast the technology is advancing so there is little chance of agreement on this topic.
Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells pollution from them will reduce too. :-)
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Regards
Bob

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the
has
travelled.
to
It is, but out of context and with little relation to the big picture.

ago
will
Because there have been minor improvements in a flawed highly inefficient piston engine design over the past 30 years, you appear to think this exonerates the internal combustion engine, or it is efficient or clean or something. It is NOT.
The engine it at the end of its lifespan, it should have gone 50 years ago.

cars)
think
too
As I mentioned in another post, according to MIT the fuel cell is not viable yet for vehicles, which are the world's worst polluters.
Far more efficient Rotary and Stirling diesel and petrol units appear the best options to fill the gap. The Stirling is external combustion, which is much a clean on the burn. Even the Rev Tec Aussie engine, a piston engine, improves thermal efficiency from 25% to over 50%.
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IMM wrote:

<snip>
What you have failed to realise, is that even these are only stopgaps too.
At the very best, a fuel BURNING engine delivers only 60%
efficiency - maybe a little more. The rest is waste heat.
If you had goine to a snotty uni, where the theory is taught, you would understand that any heat engine - and all the above are heat engines - has its efficiency dictated by the ratio of the temperature of burn to the echaust temperature. Especially as that is why a 'condensing boiler' is built the way it is.
The big picture is about energy conservation, especially in terms of waste heat, and the irreversible (in the short to medium term) problem if taking fossilised carbon out of the ground and pumping it into the air.
To solve that you need to
- use less. - burn plants you grew last year. - generate power by means that don't generate waste heat OR - use waste heat to replace the use of fuel elsewhere (CHP)
Use of the engines described does not solve any of these apart from, in a minor way, the first.
Fuel cells can solve many of the above, but in the end. electricity is bets because it generates very little waste heat when used to generate mechanial motion.
The issues then become how to generate electricity without using fossil fuel and/or heat engines. Feul cells are not heat engines, but usually use fossil fuel. Nuclear power doesn't use fossil fuel, but does use a heat engine. windmills do neither, but are ugly, of variable power, and woefully inefficient in terms of space used. Water and wave power does neither, but is localised as to its applicability. solar cells are even ore woefully inneficient, but there mat be better technology coming.. burning domestc rubbish and biomass is good as it doesn't use (much) fossil fuel - i.,e. it's more or less carbon neutral, but it does tend to need treatement to reduce pollution of toxic flue gasses.
There is no easy answer. But simply slightly better heat engines burining fossil fuils are almost the worst of all possible answers.
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inefficient
or
ago.
viable
the
which is

engine,
It is obvious that I know that, as I have already said that.

Not quite right. The overall mechanical efficiency of the unit has to be up to it. Also in road engine, the power to weight ratio is one of the most important factors.

..and use less fuel cleanly.

I did say in the short to medium term the diesel and gasoline engines will have to do, but there are far more efficient versions around than the abomination we all currently use.

It is the loses at generation and transmission losses. This can be reduced by having smaller local power stations, the UK had, using natural, using CHP to heat the local district. Transmission losses then are low and overall energy efficient is very high. Sweden do this.

"woefully inefficient in terms of space used"? You see cows grazing under them. They can be in the middle of fields and only occupy a small footprint. There are windmill farms being built off-shore all over the UK right now, Out of sight.

Wet solar panels generally inefficient per squ foot, but have the whole of a south facing roof being a solar panel and the by shear size you have an efficient collector, that will virtually provide all of the houses needs if you can store the heat in a large thermal store
Put PV cells on every south facing roof and most of the power generation station will not be needed. The solutions are there. It needs political will to force it through.

On the domestic and commercial build front, insulation levels to superinsulation, passive solar design of homes, as Germany as doing with Passiv Solar regs, south facing roofs having integrated wet solar/PV cells, boiler with integrated CPH elec/gas Stirling boilers and soon to be introduced. The Stirling CPH boilers cut the peaks of electricity usage. All this is right now, and can and should be implemented. Doing so will drastically cut fuel usage and emissions and prevent fuel poverty. And more efficiency is on the way...
What looks promising and appear likely to be introduced is the Zeolithe heat pump, which runs on natural gas for the provision of domestic heating and hot water. Currently these units are floor mounted and resemble a typical boiler in appearance. Zeolithe heating appliance's use less energy and are more environment-friendly than electric heat pumps and gas boilers. It provides considerably higher output levels than the current conventional and condensing boilers. Carbon-dioxide emissions are reduced by approximately 20 to 30%.
On the vehicle side, matters are more complex. Of course, local CHP power stations drip charging electric car overnight is very sensible, but we do not have the infrastructure for this, as yet. Also what do you do in a city, when you car is parked on the road? How do you charge it?
There are far more efficient diesel and gasoline engines around, and are running. These can be developed fully and integrated into a hybrid setup. Another method suggested is waste heat from an advanced rotary engine (not an inefficient Wankel design) which has well over 50% efficiency, driving a small Stirling engine from its waste heat, which drives a compressor, which charges an air tank. The compressed air assists drive via an air motor in a hybrid setup. This is a fine stop gap, and around town the car can run on non-polluting air, which is generated from what would have been wasted heat. The whole setup can be small in size as rotary engines are small and a compressor/air motors is also small. The compressor can also be the starter motor too.
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IMM wrote:

Hang a cable out of the window, or *gasp* build undergroung parking areas with electrical sockets?
Or charge them up in supermarket car parks etc etc.
You CAN fully charge a lithium car in about an hour, but you need specailsed charging facilities to do it safely.

Sadly these would require huge changes in engine factories, costing huge amounts of money.

hugely complicated and expensive.
You could simply have a smaller engine that charges the batteries.

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These new engines require no more than existing technology and engineering tools.

(not
driving a

which
in a

on
heat.
starter
No more complicated than an existing hybrid. Expense will be cheap when production is up and running.

Been tried. Not feasible as yet.
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If you're going to build underground car parks for all city cars that haven't their own off road parking, wouldn't it make much more sense to spend the money on extending the tube network and making it cheap/free? An electric car is only suitable for city use and will do nothing for congestion.

I only go to the supermarket on a day when I can be in and out in an hour.

Apart from the fortune needed to buy and replace such a battery for car use.
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Dave Plowman wrote:

That is simply not so.
With 300 mile range and potentially one hour fast charge from flat, it would be ideal for rural use and commuting.
What it won't do is 16 hour 1000 mile journeys...

Yes. That is the only issue left IMHO. But I would suspect you would not replace all teh battery - simply those cells that were below standard.
That would essentially be the major part of every 'service'

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If you add 'potential' to that I might believe you. Non of the electric or hybrid vehicles I've read about being tested in real world conditions get near their claims of range, etc. And a one hour charge rules out lead acid batteries - so the cost of alternatives is presently prohibitive.

Well, nor will any petrol car I know about without re-fuelling. And anyone doing such a drive should have a couple of breaks anyway.
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Dave Plowman wrote:

Not so. Things have really moved on in the last year or so. To the point where there is at least one company brave enough to have built a lithium polymer powered test car and be offering cell packs for sale. They have repacakged the biggest they could find with safety circuitry and the tests they came up with were close enough to my predictions for me to feel they were not avaiting porcines.
Price is still an issue - the sort of stuff I buy retails at $3 per watt hour, so 50kWh is $150,000
Thst for torch battery sized stuff. That represents a sort of 'it won't cost more than that' level. A hand built racing engine costs thet much as well, and no one says that because a Cosworth F1 engine is 100 grand, thats waht a Ka should cost as well..

No, but the problem is the one hour minimum to completely refill its 'tank'
Here are some links
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/02-2002/page7.htm This one is already 9 years old but predicts todays performamnce figures
http://lily.keri.re.kr/battery/wwwboard/messages96/56.html
Heres the record holding electric car for teh Pikes |Peak run
http://www.compactpower.com/pdf/2002HillClimbRecordPressRelease.pdf
Here is a company that can acatually supply 35kWh batteries for cars...tho there is a whiff of bovine excrement about his one. http://www.gatewayreports.com/reports/electrovaya.pdf
heres some data from a 1998 conference that pretty much says the same thing I have been saying. http://www.avere.org/evs15/press/evs_2.html
Ah. I found the one site I was looking for
www.acpropulson.com
This is a mean machine.
Enjoy :-)
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Yes,indeed, it would. It is, I agree, a more realistic target than breeding flying pigs.
2) The petrol used in 300 miles by a typical modern car contains about 1 GJoule. If we assume a factor of two higher efficiency, then charging in an hour needs 140 KW. A standard domestic power circuit is rated at 7 KW. You have a factor of 20 to make up.
Dammit, a CYCLIST will expend some 20 MJoules in 300 miles. Recharging that in an hour needs 6 KW! There is NO WAY that you will design a car to be as efficient as a cyclist, despite the motor lobby propaganda.
2) Despite claims, such devices would NOT help with congestion to a detectable degree.

You need specialised facilities to charge the damn things at all, at any rate. The necessity for fancy protection mechanisms is one of the reasons that they are expensive.
Please could you take this stuff to a newsgroup (a) where people are knowledgable about this sort of thing and (b) where it is on group?
Regards, Nick Maclaren.
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Nick Maclaren wrote:

I never said you would use the domestic circuit to fast charge. The scenario was a 'fats charge' station like a petrol station where you could plug in, have a pee, have a coffee, and come back with a more or less charged car in under an hour. Typically you would NOT run the thing totally flat - more like do 200 miles and then wait 40 minutes to charge it.
I am not going to repeat the figures, but I and someone else came up independently with 9/10 hours at 20A to do the charge. That would mean essentially 200A or 50Kw to do the one hour charge. I am not sure where we differ between 50Kw and 140kW. My figures derived from taking the shaft bhp used on a normal run, and electrifying those: The figures were borne out by an actual test car that is running.
Ah. You have assumed a factor of two efficincy. I think that you should be looking at 3 or more for a start. Petrol engines are not markedly effuicient at part throttle. Transmission and ancillary sttuff (alternator and other takeoffs - colling fans etc - sap more). They are 0% efficient sitting at traffic lights whereas electric motors can be stopped altogether.

Well I dunno about cyclists. My figures were for about 50kWh (180MJ) for the 300 miles. And those figures are borne out by other test sites I found - no I haven't got them to hand because it arose in another discussion elsewhere. Might be able to dig them up if you are interested. ireckon a cyclist ambling along at 15mph might need about a horsepower.. 750W - and would take 20 hours. That's 15KWh or 55MJ? yeah. within the same range as you. For a back-of-the-envelope calculation.
If we take say 60mph as the average speed, its a 5 hour trip averaged at 10Kw, or about 15bhp. That seems eminently reasonsable for something like a Fiat Punto - 50bhp - run at on average 1/3rd throttle. I am assuming better than 90% conversion efficviency, because that is what a decent electric motor, cells and controller can do. These are not fairy land figures.

No one said they would. what we are aiming for is almost zero pollution at teh point-of-transport, and utilkisation of an existing electricity infrastructure, especailly use of off peak electricity, which allows for better efficiency of generation anyway.
Congestion can only be reduced by either dramatically raising speed limits, or taking cars actually off the road.

Nothing too fancy is needed. A simple voltage and temperature monitor is all that is required.
Currently the ones being developed for model use are about 30% of cell cost - a few dollars only. How this would scale with larger cells is unknown. Its the last area to investigate.

Well you seem to think YOU are, and so does IMM. AND I think its is interesting enough to stay here until it dies of boredom.
Its no more YOUR group than it is mine. Its marginally nearer on topic than 'britney spears nude'

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What ??? I can't imagine a human being able to develop a horsepower for very long at all - more like 100 or 200 watts and even that would not be sustainable for long. So how does the average "regular" cyclist ride a bike for an hour or so at 15 mph covering 15 miles ?
Nick
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Followups set somewhere more relevant.
|> |> >>>An electric car is only suitable for city use and will do nothing for |> >>>congestion. |> >>> |> >>That is simply not so. |> >> |> >>With 300 mile range and potentially one hour fast charge from flat, it |> >>would be ideal for rural use and commuting. |> > |> > Yes,indeed, it would. It is, I agree, a more realistic target than |> > breeding flying pigs. |> > |> > 2) The petrol used in 300 miles by a typical modern car contains |> > about 1 GJoule. If we assume a factor of two higher efficiency, then |> > charging in an hour needs 140 KW. A standard domestic power circuit |> > is rated at 7 KW. You have a factor of 20 to make up. |> |> I never said you would use the domestic circuit to fast charge. The |> scenario was a 'fats charge' station like a petrol station where you |> could plug in, have a pee, have a coffee, and come back with a more or |> less charged car in under an hour. Typically you would NOT run the thing |> totally flat - more like do 200 miles and then wait 40 minutes to charge it.
Well, excluding the minor detail that taking an hour to 'fill up' where it currently takes 5 minutes is not something that I should want to do, using a 200 A circuit safely or even practically isn't like using a 13 A one. Even in industry, the maximum plug that is used just like a domestic 13 A one is rated at 32 A.
Inter alia, contact corrosion, condensation and so on are BAD NEWS at 200 A.
|> Ah. You have assumed a factor of two efficincy. I think that you should |> be looking at 3 or more for a start. Petrol engines are not markedly |> effuicient at part throttle. Transmission and ancillary sttuff |> (alternator and other takeoffs - colling fans etc - sap more). They are |> 0% efficient sitting at traffic lights whereas electric motors can be |> stopped altogether.
I was estimating on the basis of distance driving. 50 KW is too low, except for the smallest runabout, which would not meet most people's requirements. 100 KW is more plausible, even given your factor of 3.
|> > > |> > > Dammit, a CYCLIST will expend some 20 MJ in 300 miles. Recharging |> > > that in an hour needs 6 KW! There is NO WAY that you will design a car |> > > to be as efficient as a cyclist, despite the motor lobby propaganda. |> > |> > Well I dunno about cyclists. My figures were for about 50kWh (180MJ) for |> > the 300 miles. And those figures are borne out by other test sites I |> > found - no I haven't got them to hand because it arose in another |> > discussion elsewhere. Might be able to dig them up if you are |> > interested. ireckon a cyclist ambling along at 15mph might need about a |> > horsepower.. 750W - and would take 20 hours. That's 15KWh or 55MJ? yeah. |> > within the same range as you. For a back-of-the-envelope calculation. |> |> What ??? I can't imagine a human being able to develop a horsepower |> for very long at all - more like 100 or 200 watts and even that would not be |> sustainable for long. So how does the average "regular" cyclist ride a bike for |> an hour or so at 15 mph covering 15 miles ?
At 200 W.
Regards, Nick Maclaren.
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too.
up
r.
reduced
CHP
The indirect transmision losses involved in shovelling large numbers of loads of small amounts of fuel to thousands of small power stations all over the country are vastly greater than the transmission losses in power cables.

I bet they have not looked carefully enough at the costs and energy efficiencies of such a policy, unless they are in a position in which the fuel is naturally available dispersed all over the country.

footprint.
Sadly, incapable of producing anything more than a negligible amout of power.

You should not use such a meaningless term in a discussion which is more or less scientifically based. Efficiency is defined as power out/power in. There is no room for a subsidiary phrase "per square foot".

if
Unfortunately the economics are still wrong. Very wrong. Otherwise they would have been in use by more than the afficionados.

cells,
re
heat
are
and
You should not have a car if having one means the appropriation of public highway space for your exclusive use. Or do folk who misuse roads in this way pay rent to the local authority?

a
which
heat.
starter
And how many folk are gong to be trained to be proficient in servicing such a vastly complicated object?
Franz
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Not if the fuel is in natural gas pipelines.

The last time I looked, there were highly viable.

fossil
usually
and
The UK is aiming for 25% of its power generation by wind. CHP Stirling boilers are also envisaged to fill gaps too.

even
??? You can get high efficient wet solar panels, but they are "very" expensive. Flat plate collectors are a lot less efficient.

You should understand how flat plate collectors work.

The economics "now" are wrong. Political will, will force it through and mass production will reduce components accordingly to a point it is feasible. It is the kick-start that is required.

Complicated? None of that is complicated at all. A lot less complicated than the current petrol IC engine/electric motor hybrids.
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