Unswitched neutral for timer switches

[Richard Russell]

I've fitted two timer switches (the sort that replace a switchplate) and modified both of them in order to be able to feed compact fluorescent lamps (precisely how I did that is another story!). However, in the process I needed access to unswitched neutral in addition to unswitched and switched live.

In the case of one switch (feeding an outdoor porch light) I was fortunate, since the neutral was already routed through the wall box. In the other case (a landing light) I had to 'borrow' a connection from a switchplate on the other side of the partition wall, fortunately almost immediately adjacent. I realise that's not ideal, but it was expedient.

Anyway, that's water under the bridge and both lights work very well under control of the timers. We are now contemplating moving house, to a new build, and I'm wondering about asking the builders to provide a feed of unswitched neutral to nominated light switches. I presume that's still not standard? Assuming that to be the case is it a reasonable request to make? What would be an appropriate choice of cable(s) and colours for this application?

Richard.

reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

[Lurch]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:37:35 -0700, Richard Russell mused:

Right, we'll skip over all that as I CBA

Just get them to use a 3 core and earth to each switch instead of a twin and earth. Use whatever colours you want to out of the 3 you have, as long as you sleeve them accordingly.

You may be better off asking the sparks on site to stick the extra cables in for a few quid rather than the housebuilder as it will be somewhat cheaper. Worst thing is they say no and you request that the housebuilder does it. We used to say no to everything everyone asked us as until the deposit was paid everything went as the plans said. YMMV.

[Andrew Gabriel]

As I gradually rewired lighting circuit over a 20 year period (whilst I was redecorating the relevant areas, but also with a view to putting in home automation), I ran triple and earth to almost every point (switch or lamp). They are all run back to a wiring centre (a gutted CU). This made it trivial to change the way switching worked, replace a single with a double switch, or if I'd needed to, feed a neutral to a switch. When I did put in the HA about 6 years ago, it was a trivial excersise interfacing it to the wiring centre.

[Graham.]

Even Mao's China only looked forward 5 years at a time.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Graham." saying something like:

Then made a Great Leap Backward.

[meow2222]

all you need specify is that the mains feed goes to the lightswitches rather than the ceiling roses. No extra cables needed.

However... see

[Richard Russell]

Interesting that you should mention Home Automation. I presume that in these days of wireless connectivity there's no longer any need to festoon the house with CAT5 cabling! However, given the one-off opportunity to install extra wiring before the Second Fix, is there anything you would specify to future-proof the property?

Richard.

reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

[meow2222]

multiple cat5es are cheap and can be used for all sorts of apps, not just pc networks.

NT

[Richard Russell]

True enough, but they're a compromise for many applications (such as video and audio) and I'd rather lay something more appropriate if I really thought it was needed. I'll be specifying extra TV coax (UHF/ satellite) cables anyway - I'm sure you wouldn't suggest using CAT5 for that!

Richard.

reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

[Huge]

I don't see why not. We transmit video over Cat5 with appropriate baluns, over a much larger building than a domestic dwelling.

Personally, though, I'd floodwire with Cat5 (at least 3 drops in every room, more in the living room and my study), speaker cable (unless you want to use a Squeezebox(*), or similar), telephone cable (or add another Cat5), coax (for TV and VHF), alarm wiring (or add another Cat5) and I'd likely add a 20-pair or similar for home automation stuff that can't be done over a network.

(*

[Andrew Gabriel]

I'm not a great fan of wireless. HA mainly uses alarm accessories, and they are intended for use with stranded alarm cable, not solid core. Some people do use Cat 5 or even phone cable. Use 6 or 8 core alarm cable, which gives some scope for expansion utilising spare cores.

You could easily cable in both Cat5e and alarm/HA wiring before second fix. I would certainly do so -- I've never regretting flooding the house with Cat5e when all the carpets/floors were up. The only time I use wireless is whilst setting up a system for someone else.

[Lurch]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:37:27 -0700, [e-mail] mused:

Worst way of doing it, but then I expect nothing less from you.

[Lurch]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:03:50 -0700, Richard Russell mused:

There isn't a need as such, but if I had an empty shell and I were going to fit full or partial home automation I would definitely be using some sort f hardwiring for the interconnections and controls.

That's a term I hate to see used, 'future-proof'. It's impossible to future proof a property, you can install loads of extras, more than you can possibly envisage using, but you won't future proof it, not for more than a few years at a time.

Depends on what you want to do really, you could ask for 2 CT100's, 4 cat6, 2 CW1308's, and plenty of tubes and draw wires in every corner of every room, cat6 to various ceiling locations for speakers, audio controls at every doorway etc.... Budget is the only real limit.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Depends on how much you value the integrity of your network.

Like thigs happening when yusue te miucrowave, or a thuinderstom goes on neraby...

CVae 5 is usable as alarm wiring, phone wiring, USB type wiring IIRC, and just about usable for audio: There are ways to even run TV type signals over it I believe.

[Piers Finlayson]

IME wireless is not a complete substitute for wired ethernet. I use wireless at home for surfing and email - and that's it.

I run all my real-time applications (VoIP, streaming music and streaming video) over wired as they are too susceptible to individual packets being slightly delayed - which can happen due to many sources of interference on wireless.

[Richard Russell]

Good luck to you. However I worked for the BBC for over 32 years and doing that is anathema to me.

As you can guess by my above comment, I'm too old to be bothered with such things. We've happily lived in our current house (also bought new, also with some customised wiring) for 13 years without once missing any of those features!

Richard.

[meow2222]

No one cable will do everything. Cat5e is very cheap and does most things. People dont usually install multiple cable types, so 5e is a good all rounder with very low cost. It wont carry satellite or much power at LV, nor is it rated for higher V apps.

5e is not a compromise for audio, this is an enduring myth. It is not necessary to use a screened cable to get good clean signal, that is only _one_ method of doing so. Driving the cable with a < 1 ohm amplifier (eg almost any small 8 ohm audio amp) wipes out interference very effectively, even on cables of much worse quality than 5e.

And yes, 8 ohm amps almost always have Zout of < 1 ohm.

NT

[meow2222]

5e doesnt make great speaker cable, but distribbing audio at low level and amplifying at point of use is my preference. If you must use it as speaker cable, there are 4 ways of doing so - and probably more.

NT

[meow2222]

Does precisely what the OP requested without wasting his money. You seem to like criticising such things.

NT

[Tim Southerwood]

Richard Russell coughed up some electrons that declared:

When wireless does 1gig/sec...

Anyway, if you are going to bother at all, install Cat6a. That will manage upto 10gig :)

And stick it in conduit so you can pull and replace in 15 years with the latest in terabit networking to go with your 100GHz 32 core system where windows still takes 5 seconds to open an application.

But at least clippy will be holographically rendered in exquisite detail.

Cheers

Tim