Hello
I've just had an old Armitage Shanks toilet replaced with a new Heritage Bathrooms model. The AS cistern had an upstanding pipe which allowed water to run out the house in the event that the inlet valve failed - which it did a few times over the years. The HB cistern has no such external overflow and as far as I can see, if I hold down the float it simply overflows over the top of the cistern.
Is this correct, or am I missing something here?
Many Thanks Des
[T] I thought they can overflow into the pan these days?
All the best ..
T i m
On 25 Feb 2004, Des wrote
Sounds odd; are you sure there isn't an overflow hole out the side of the cistern, up towards the top?
I'm not positive about this, , but I *think* close-coupled tanks have an upstand pipe that overflows out the bottom, as it were, whilst low- rise and high-rise cisterns have the overflow hole higher up, on the side.
Some modern cisterns apparently have internal overflows - which flow into the pan.
Have you actually *tried* holding the float down to see what happens?
Yes, I did and the level reached the lowest part of the cistern rim (why on earth do they have semi-circular cut out on the back?) and began to overflow. I tried again with a bucket and this time added water more gently and it seemed to cope. There is some form of internal overflow through the siphon into the pan but it would only deal with a leaking valve - certainly not a complete failure.
The AS design was much better imo. I'll have to hope that modern valves are less likely to stick open due to sand/soil in the supply following works - that happened with my compact silent valves a few times.
Thanks
I have the same toilet and had the same problem! I just replaced the standard Heritage supplied valve with a Wickes Torbeck Valve. This gives you inserts to adjust the flow into the cistern, my cistern now takes 80 secs to fill instead of 45 but it is much quieter (almost silent) and if I jam the valve open the flow is at a rate that the internal overflow can cope with.I can jam the valve open for 20 mins and the level never rises above the internal overflow, as you pointed out with the standard fitting it overflowed in about 20 - 30 secs.
Modern cisterns/syphons are designed to overflow into the pan. If yours is not there is likely a problem.
HTH Rob
Des wrote
Don't forget you can regulate the water flow with the external isolating valve. It makes filling much quieter too!
Peter
Hello Des
Ha! I've just fitted a Heritage toilet also. It's nice.
I had this same question. The ceramic cistern has no hole for a conventional overflow. The instructions for the flush assembly DO mention an internal overflow but it's by no means apparent that what you're given is such a beast.
However... When I hold down the ballcock on mine to simulate an overflow, water DOES drain down to the pan (as per the new regs that allow an internal overflow). I have absolutely no idea how it does this - there's no physical difference to the assembly compared to a normal one, but it "just works", so I stopped worrying about it. It doesn't drain enough to cope with a full blown entry failure, but then
- a 21.5mm conventional overflow often wouldn't either.
Mine, and I suspect, yours - are internal overflows that will cope with a small volume of water which is adequate for the majority of "leaking" feeds.
It could be you don't have the internal overflow gubbins inside, or if you "had it fitted" the plumber substited it or somehow messed up the fitting. I can confirm, though, that HB supplied mine with an internal overflow which works through some kind of magic.
Hold down the float to raise the water level until it's about to flood then check the pan, I suspect you'll see water trickling down.
Hello Harvey
Not with the new ones. Makes it a lot easier and neater to fix, especially on internal walls.
I have the same cistern - it has four holes:
That's it - no conventional overflow at all.
On 26 Feb 2004, Simon Avery wrote
Thanks; wasn't aware of that.
Reading the description in your other post, though, doesn't this invisibility lead to "not knowing and therefore not fixing" minor overflow problems?
It seems to me that one of the advantages of a visible overflow is that it acts as a flag to let you know that you should look at the thing so it doesn't get worse.
I have an HB toilet standing in my spare bedroom, awaiting installation.
The instructions say you can have an internal or external overflow, and there is a hole in the bottom of the cistern to accomodate an overflow, which is provided, as is a blanking plug if you decide not to use it. It doesn't say what, if anything, to do if you don't want to use the external overflow, other than fitting the blanking plug.
BTW, I'm not greatly pleased with Heritage Bathrooms. The first vanity unit for the sink, and the toilet seat, were both damaged. The vanity had marks down the front where some decoration had been routed out and the toilet seat had a "ding" in it.
The replacements were not only damaged, but the wrong things - gold fittings instead of chrome.
We still await delivery of the *third* set.
Except my HB toilet *does* have a conventional overflow.
It is an older model though. Heritage seem to have gone over to pushbutton flushes, which we dislike, so we had the display model out of the showroom which has a lever.
On reading this thread I decided to check 2 cisterns I've installed in my house recently (different cisterns but both with internal overflows). I held the ballcock right down on both and both coped totally - the water level rose slightly but then remained constant - overflow going down the pan. They would certainly cope with a full blown entry failure.
Just fitted new toilet - wondered where the overflow was as well but then read it's built in, down the pan.
Rob.
Any particular reason?
Cheers, Rob
Hello Harvey
That's why they always had the external overflow, but I guess they're less fussy now or maybe modern materials are less likely to fail?
The overflow /is/ noticable, you can see the water running down the inside back of the pan. But it's far less annoying than a traditional overflow so possibly is less likely to get fixed so quickly.
But I like it anyway, I didn't want to spoil my lovely new tiles by poking a big bit of plastic through them. :)
Hello Huge
Oh!
Ours is brand new and lever-equipped (I'd hate pushbutton too), so maybe they switched back, or it's range dependant?
Got the whole bathroom from Heritage. Everything is superb quality except for the shower head and rail - just gilt plastic. A real shame as the rest of the golden stuff is all metal.
Today I've started ripping out old shower!
There's no extra gubbins: water simply flows over the top of the inverted-U-shaped part of the syphon assembly and down into the pan. The only difference between that and a bog[sorry] standard arrangement is the relative levels of the top of the syphon and the external overflow on conventional cisterns which allow water to reach the top of the syphon - on a normal cistern water would reach the overflow outlet first.
It should be able to cope with practically full-bore mains flow into the cistern, but for some reason cistern makers do like to put stupid cutouts into the back of the cistern for no apparent reason which compromise the design.
As for the question of which type of overflow is more easily visible, I think a drip is more visible from an external pipe, but I've seen external pipes in inconspicuous (even invisible) places where a minor river can (and in some cases I've seen, does) discharge without anyone noticing, which they would with an overflow down the pan.
Thanks - the issue is now resolved
This is not the first such remark I've heard in connection with Heritage. Our cistern came without the handle - caveat emptor!
Des
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.