OT: Planning / land ownership problem

[TRK's Dad]

Someone here might have some ideas on the following - any suggestions gratefully received :

Some members of my family have ended up in a rather regrettable position. Their house sits on a sizeable plot of land and they have succesfully obtained outline planning permission to put some houses on part of it. The entire project has always relied on them buying a chunk of adjoining land (which currently forms part of the garden for a house - let's call it number 35) which will provide access to the part of the plot with planning permission. A gentleman's agreement was reached some time ago regarding this and although there has been some to-ing and fro-ing regarding the price in general this hasn't been a problem. However they have now hit a snag in that the people who own the house cannot confirm that they actually own the piece of land in question. Many years ago (before the family members' house was built) a couple of cottages existed on the site and the bit of land they want to buy formed an access route to them. Once the cottages were no longer occupied this access fell into disrepair and it seems that number 35 just assumed it into their garden without actually ever owning it. So, number 35 doesn't legally own it, so they can't sell it so the whole project (there is no other access) is no longer viable. Other than hoping another house bordering the plot and that can supply access comes up for sale and buying it, can anyone think of another solution ?

[Richard]

You've been down the Land Registry route to determine (a) if the land is registered and (b), assuming it is registered, who does own it? How long has number 35 been treating the land as their own? They may consider going down the 'adverse possession' route.

HTH Richard

[Harry Ziman]

You may find that if Number 35 have fenced and occupied the land in an uncontested way for twelve years (if my memory is correct) they have title to it. You could invesitgate at a property law website or land registry.

[David McNeish]

Tracing the descendents of the former owners of the cottages and buying the land from them? Might be straightforward, might be impossible. There are companies who specialise in that sort of research.

David

[TRK's Dad]

Thanks for the reply.

Well, the owners of number 35 haven't owned the house and associated land for 12years, which I understand is the requirement for adverse possesion. They also rent it out, which may or may not have bearing. However, the previous owners were there for well over 12 years - if they 'acquired' the land in question through adverse possesion would ownership then pass to new owners ?

Hmmm

[TRK's Dad]

Just a clarifying point - there appears to no record of who *does*own said piece of land so what I take to be the usual adverse possession situation where one person occupies someone else's property may not apply - becuase no-one knows who actually owns it.

[Richard]

When you say there is no record of ownership do you mean that it is unregistered? Adverse possession is not one of my fields, but write (along with a good paln) to the district Land Registry that is responsible for the land area in question, asking if it is registered and how you (or number 35) goes about claiming possession. Ditto in the event of it being unregistered. Land Registration Act 2002 included some significant changes in adverse possession. The relevant DLR will do its level best to be helpful, more so as you (or number 35) will be acting, I assume, as a 'lay person' and therefore not expected to know what you are doing! BTW where is the land?

Look at

and

Richard

[Lobster]

If ultimately you can't ascertain who owns the land (and I can't believe it's impossible!), have you considered flattening the existing house to provide the necessary access? Sounds drastic, but if that's the only way, it's what often has to be done if it's the only way for the project to go ahead (and probably gets overlooked as a solution)

David

[Dave Jones]

If the family members house now stands on the site previously occupied by the 2 cottages, or they own this site then surely they would also own the access route to the plot.

Have you checked the deeds to the property?

[sPoNiX]

AFAIK, yes, although the adverse possession/possessary title laws have changed recently, making it much harder to obtain land in this way.

Which is also possibly illegal, seeing as they don't own it.

No.

sPoNiX

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[Al Reynolds]

IANAL

Start by doing a search of the index map (SIM) via the land registry online website. It's free, but you may need to provide a plan of the area showing the plot in question. The land may be registered, or there may be a caution against first registration. If so, then there should be details of the people who have an interest in the land. These people can then be contacted to enquire about purchasing the land. You are *very* unlikely to be able to gain adverse possession if title to the land is registered.

If the land is not registered, then original provisions for adverse possession (12 years etc.) still apply, and the following Land Registry practice guide to adverse possession may be helpful:

this to be even considered, the following would need to be true: (i) the land must not be registered (ii) the "squatter" must have possession of the land (iii) the "squatter" must intend to posess the land (iv) the "squatter"s possession of the land must be without the (unknown) owner's consent (v) the above conditions must be true (for both the squatter and any predecessors through whom the squatter is claiming) for 12 yrs prior to the application for adverse possession.

Let us know how you get on. Al

[sylva]

Could you provide a pointer to this please?

AJH

[Al Reynolds]

[Lobster]

Dunno why, but everytime I see that acronym I think of the book/album/film "I, Robot"

(No offence, Al!)

David

[mich]

Actually it does count if previous owners also owned and used the land! But you have to get the previous owners to make a statutory declaration to the effect they had possession of the land. Then their years are added to the current owners years to make up the 12 or more.

The renting out may complicate things. You may have to wait an extra three years with the house unrented. I am not sure about that bit of the law - something to do with the tenants ability by living there to make a claim for possession also.

I have done the adverse possession bit on a piece of land that was missed off my deeds at an earlier registration.

The salient points are;

The land is unregisted or has no "known owner" currently. If it had an owner, it could be a problem, but even then, its still possible to take the land by possession. The change in the law simply means that before the land registry will entertain a new registration they advise the person with the current registered ownership of the intention of the adverse possessor to register an interest and ask if they are objecting. They get 21 days to object.

The land must have been in the possession of the property and its successive owners for a period of at least 12 years. This has to be established and since the current owner has not been there 12 years, they will need to contact the previous owners in this regard before a registration application can go ahead.

(My problems arose because my predecessor was deceased and so I had to register ownership under adverse possession and wait out 12 years to get my land back!).

The land registry are quite good with information on this process. They are about the only ones who are in my experience! Most solicitors lack basic understanding that all land law is essentially possessory! ( If you grab it and keep it , its yours!)

The only other thing I can see that might complicate matters .... it was an access. Was there any right of way or public footpath across it? It still may not affect adverse possession. I own a lane like this, but it could make the process complicated. In rural areas espeially this kind of thing is happening all the time.

>

[Al Reynolds]

Should be fine - the tenants cannot claim adverse possession because they were there by arrangement and with permission. Occupation needs to be unauthorised to qualify for adverse possession.

Al

[TRK's dad]

Could be a problem - the tenant is a solicitor ! And the owner of number 35 allegedly let him write his own contract !

I believe that this is the case.

It is a distinct possibility that the previous owner is no longer with us.

I don't think that there was a public footpath, but there may have been a right of way in years gone by.

I've downloaded a few things from the Land Registry website and I'll get the people concerned to contact them. If there's a possibility of it working, they've then got to convince the owners of number 35 to go for it. This *shouldn't* be a problem - there's the small matter of the not inconsiderable five figure sum they'll get for flogging this small piece of land and they've also got planning permission for a couple of houses on the rest of the plot but the viability of them depend largely on this particular piece of land being used for access.

Thanks for the info.

[TRK's dad]

Thanks for the info - I believe that the land is unregistered currently. It's in Gloucestershire.

[Al Reynolds]

Sideways thought - if this piece of land has been used for access, or could even have been a right of way, can't you just establish the right of way and not bother buying the land? I think there's something called easements relating to this, but IANAL so I'm not sure. The people at No. 35 can't sell it if they don't own it and can't claim adverse possession, so it'll stay unregistered and serve as a right of way.

Al

[Al Reynolds]

You won't be able to count them for adverse possession rights then, because you would need them to provide you with a signed statement saying that they intended to possess the land etc.

Al