[OT] Paper bags carbon footprint too high

[Tim Watts]

Utterly off topic - but I was wondering if anyone else knew anything about this:

Just asked a High St retailer if they had any plans to introduce paper bags as a more environmentally friendly alternative to plastic.

The response was "We've been told paper bags have too high a carbon footprint".

Now, given paper literally grows on trees, breaks down nicely and is easily recyclable, that sounds like complete tosh.

And don't the environmental benefits of not choking wildlife to death if the bag escapes outweigh some ethereal "carbon impact"?

[dennis]

Energy to cut it, plant it, pulp it, bleach it, make it into paper, dry it, machine it, deliver it, etc. Just because it grows doesn't make it green.

It doesn't choke on reusable bags either.

[Tim Watts]

Compared to plastic?

No?

[Chris B]

been long debated in the US where a grocery shopper is often asked "paper or plastic" (for your grocery sack, rather than as a means of paying)

Some comparisons here which may shed some light

[dennis]

Plastic bags are a lot cheaper and as energy is the biggest cost plastic bags probably use less of it.

Where does that mention reusable bags?

[Bill]

In message , Chris B writes

My not-too-local chip shop has free plastic bags, but says I shouldn't use them because they ruin the culinary delight that I am about to experience, My response is that I will experience something far worse if swmbo discovers her car seat has a dressing of chip fat.

I asked why they didn't use paper bags. I had a lecture on the high price to them of paper bags compared with plastic.

[charles]

what's wrong with newspaper? That's the authentic wrapping

[harry]

ISTR that it was stopped for hygiene reasons and antimony in the ink. Mind, I never heard os anyone suffering ill health because of it .

[Tim Watts]

That is very interesting, but seems to overlook 2 things:

1 Paper made from recycled sources - it seems to assume all paper is made from clearfelling and the question of "eco friendly paper" is non existent. The thing to look for here is that the paper FSC certified:

2 Impact of bags (pre and post disintegration) on wildlife - tangling/choking hazard and the plastic fibres that get into the ocean.

It does mention a ratio of 7:9 for energy to create a plastic vs paper bag either from recycled or virgin sources, but I don't think that is a clear winner once factored in with the damage waste plastic does when it gets dumped.

It's good though to have the numbers - I think I'll email that particular retail chain and challenge them to think beyond the simple mantra of "carbon footprint".

Cheers :)

[Tim Streater]

Don't see why. Historically in my experience it was only the outer sheets that were newspaper.

[Brian-Gaff]

However given the production of paper for other uses, I'd still have thought it a better bet than plastic, which as I understand it is now inside even the most remotely living organisms from the deep trenches of our oceans. Brian

[tim.....]

just because a bag IS reusable doesn't mean that it gets reused

tim

[fred]

Paper is preferable as paper degrade naturally where plastic is forever

Why did they have to make the regulations so bloody complicated. In ireland there is a plastic bag tax which everybody( essentially) has to pay. Peopl e adapted to it quite easily and most gladly carry re-usable bags for their grocery shopping and the number of plastic bags in the hedgerows has been vastly reduced as has been the waste.

[Tim+]

Not necessarily, we used to store Christmas decorations in our loft in supermarket carrier bags. A number of them just spontaneously disintegrated.

In general though, I agree and I've already seen a large reduction in carrier bags on the beach locally.

Tim

[Jonno]

Tim Watts scribbled

Paper weighs more. Increased transport costs, etc.

[Michael Chare]

What I object to is people who, in rural areas put their dog shit in plastic bags and then hang it on a branch. If they just left the stuff on the ground, mother nature would have a much easier job of getting rid of it.

[The Natural Philosopher]

+10001

[Tim Watts]

There's the problem - the bags *disintegrate* into fibres, but those take a very long time to decompose. Now those fibres are sloshing around the oceans getting into everything.

[dennis]

It helps if the other bags cost more, which is the reasoning behind the charge. Its there to reduce the litter problem rather than the CO2 "problem".

[dennis]

8<

That's because they have been biodegradable for years. They just don't degrade as fast as paper bags do.