OT Not DIY Solar Panels

[Broadback]

With the new FiT payment solar panels look to be worthwhile. what are the best ones, also how can one be sure of a good supplier and installer?

[Vortex4]

Where are you?

Well I had mine installed by

who are based in Reading.

Very professional company; very good value and would not hesitate to recommend.

~£5k for 1kWp

~£9k for 2kWp

D

[Broadback]

Sorry, should have said, North Staffordshire

[Vortex4]

Call them for a quote. I believe they operate across the UK, with a couple of satellite offices.

In my case I got the £2500 grant as well (this has just been stopped) so it was a complete financial no-brainer.

[Roger Mills]

Was it? What assumptions did you make about the average number of kWh per day that you could extract from it? What fuel does it displace? How long is the anticipated pay-back period?

[Vortex4]

1500-1600kWH per year generated from a 2kWp array costing £9k

Read this:

is 41.3 pp kWh this is for all energy generated regardless of whether you use it or it is exported after April.

So £600 + income per year (tax exempt by the way)

PLUS you you buy less electricity in the first place and that is in effect

10p/unit so another £100 per year (that will reduce as and when the electric co replace my prehistoric meter with a smart one).

Even without the grant that's 8% ROI. A no brainer.

D

[Man at B&Q]

Until a future government chenge the FiT and you are left with an expensive white elephant and no return of capital.

MBQ

[Andy Dingley]

I buy most of my electricity at night. PV isn't going to dent that.

[Jethro]

They would never do that - there's a planet to save.

[Vortex4]

Of course it is. All surplus electricity is EXPORTED to the grid.

In these situations your meter goes backwards (literally) and your bill winds down.

Suggest you do some homework!

[Andy Dingley]

Really?! Who'd have thought it!

So PV under FiT comes down to hard economics, rather than feelgood about powering my personal zero-carbon toaster (et al.)

So what's the capital cost of PV, what's the unit value to me (delivering it backwards through the meter), what's the likely system lifetime, payback period and why on earth should I then take this sizable sum of money and invest it in a tiny PV system on a roof under UK weather? As opposed to, lets say, backing a three-legged donkey in the Grand National.

Suggest you learn to do some maths.

[Andy Dingley]

As if.

[Vortex4]

Fortunately I am well qualified there.

relax and read this:

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:59:52 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy Dingley wrote this:-

Scoff as much as you like.

In the quoted figures are:

"My 640 wp system has been in just over the 12 months now,

"the annual production was 496 kwh"

and

"Hi, on my 1kwp system that fitted on 19/7/08 to 19/7/09 i got

860kwh"

No-doubt you will accuse me or them of lying.

[Chris J Dixon]

I am tempted.

I was looking at some of the warranty documents for the actual panels - the ones "guaranteed to maintain 80% output for 25 years".

Initially it gives you a warm glow, but if it goes badly, they only cover the cost of the panel, based on the original cost discounted at x% per year. You seem to be responsible for removal, testing to prove their reduced performance, and re-instatement. I guess, unless it is a gross failure early on, that it is not going to be cost-effective to exercise your rights.

Looks like metering might also be interesting. If there is no smart or export meter, which is down to the supplier, or your pocket, I think they are simply going to "deem" a certain level of export. Not sure yet who benefits here.

Chris

[Vortex4]

The PV inverter sits on a dedicated spur and has it's own "approved" meter on the circuit.

The FiT is based on this reading ie all you generate whether exported or not......and I assume after April this meter will be "read" just like the main one.

In my case I have an old "analog" spinning disc meter as the main meter which simply registers your net usage. It even goes backwards when PV supply exceeds demand. I'm happy with that.

It seems like a ridiculously expensive way to save the planet. I have a much simpler view that it is "cash back" on the immense amount of tax that I directly and indirectly deliver to the Government. There aren't many investments that yield 8% return out there.

D

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

No, but for that amount tied up for a few years you can easily get 3 or 4% compounded with guaranteed return of your capital at the end of the term. Unless you have other reasons, like wanting to be "off grid", then it's a no brainer, and PV loses every time.

MBQ

[Roger Mills]

I would have to agree with that. I had no idea that you could sell it back to the grid at 40-odd pence per unit - totally mad!

It may provide an annual *income* of 8% of the initial investment (if you're lucky!) but even that will take over 12 years to recoup the installation price. That's only an RoI of 8% if the installation is still worth what you paid for it at the end of the 12 years. Time will tell whether it will be or not - but I think I'd settle for a return of half that rate provided my capital was guaranteed to be intact at the end.

[David WE Roberts]

#No, but for that amount tied up for a few years you can easily get 3 #or 4% compounded with guaranteed return of your capital at the end of #the term. Unless you have other reasons, like wanting to be "off #grid", then it's a no brainer, and PV loses every time.

#MBQ

This is the crux of all these dodgy costings - figures like '8% ROI' are pointless when this is not an investment (which you can subsequently sell) but a capital expenditure to generate revenue (hopefully). To be cost effective you need to make enough money to pay back the capital outlay in a reasonable time and also match or better the interest you would have got if you had invested the money elsewhere. [To me 'reasonable time' would be 5-10 years maximum.] Also, as pointed out above, interest on an investment can be compounded; on the PV generation to match this you would have to invest any money saved from your electricity bill. So payback (not profit) in 15-20 years if there are no additional costs (e.g for repairs) and the payments are maintained and interest rates do not go up significantly. Meanwhile someone else has your money.

I would be more interested in how much it was just to get the spur and meter - I could then add PV arrays as and when they were a good price and probably do a lot better than the apparent £4k for a 1Kw panel.

I think we are generally in favour of alternative energy sources as long as they are cost effective.

I suspect it would be a lot more cost effective to pay households to store surplus energy (e.g. from wind farms when the wind is blowing) then release it back into the grid when demand peaks.

Cheers

LGC

[Vortex5]

Of course it is saleable. It's attached to the house and as such has value of course this tech will be much cheaper in 10 years time but it will still have value as it will generate an income stream for the new housholder.

The FiT will be in place for 25 years. OK in real terms the 41.3p per unit will become "worth" less but nevertheless it's existence will dictate a notional "value"

You won't qualify for FiT on that basis