OT - 4x4 automatic car.

[Steve Firth]

No, they are not. That's an urban myth. It is illegal to use snow chains on a road that is not covered in snow.

"You should only use snow chains when there is a blanket of snow on the road. ... On roads that are free from snow, you must remove the chains to avoid any damage to the car. Always pick a safe place to fit and remove chains, preferably on level ground."

Then they are inadequate for driving in snow. In another part of the thread you announced that you know all about tyres, yet it appears that the point being made went right over your head. As other posters have also commented, if you want to move around in snow, front wheel drive + winter tyres is perfectly good and cheaper than buying a 4x4.

[snip whiny crap]

I note that all your puffing yourself up about what a great driver you are is rapidly coming to nothing, since you don't even appear to be familiar with th legislation that pertains to your vehicle.

[Another Dave]

Ah! I wondered why I was vaguely leery about my ABS in snow.

Another Dave

[Jeff Gaines]

recommend it" or conversly " dont get this its rubbish" type answers.

OK, I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara (07 reg) 5 door and I recommend it.

[Steve Firth]

Perhaps you could point to anyone who has said any such thing?

[Steve Firth]

Yes you drooling apology for a wankstain.

Read lower down the Wikipedia page, or look at Fiat's current catalogue. Jings but you're dumb.

[Steve Firth]

SDP (Steyr-Daimler-Puch), makers at one time of the Pinzgauer and Haflinger.

Sadly not a far as I can see.

[Steve Firth]

[Steve Firth]

WTF is the Dacia doing in there?

[Steve Firth]

OK, get a GMC Yukon, I've had one of those in the past and they're great.

[John Rumm]

I have not read through all the other responses yet, but assuming you want something car like (rather than utility vehicle style) then your combination of requirements screams Subaru. (I freely admit to bias as I have owned many!)

Reliability is usually first rate and customer satisfaction surveys usually place the whole ownership experience near the top of the tables. The cars are well specified, rugged, comfortable and a decent drive.

"Smallish" is a bit hard to qualify. I would suggest avoiding the really small ones like the Justy (based on Suzuki swift underpinnings), and look at the proper Subaru designed models like the Imprezza (or the Saab badged version), Legacy, Forrester etc. The first is the smallest (escort sized), the latter are more mondeo sized.

In terms of traction in poor road conditions they are noticeably better than most 2WD stuff - even the automatics. However there are some gottchas... Performance in snow will to a large extent depend on tyres. If you are out in the sticks a bit then having a spare set of wheels with winter tyres on will make a big difference. 4WD will get you moving in cases 2WD won't, but it won't improve your breaking much (the mechanical ABS effect of the limited slip will help a little by resisting locking of individual wheels). More importantly unless you can find one fitted with a cow catcher, no amount of traction is going to get you past the row of cars clogging up the hill in front of you!

[Clive George]

I sometimes visit Norway in the winter. They mostly use normal cars and cope fine. The thing which makes the big difference is tyres - and non-studded are becoming increasingly popular there.

The problem is you've asked a horribly vague question. Here's a couple of 4x4's :

?navRoot=toyota_1024_root&nodiv=TRUE&fullwidth=TRUE&forceText=%3cnone%3e&edname=LC6_CarChapter&id=LC6_LC05&zone=Zone%20NG%20Land%20Cruiser&deepLink=LC6_LC05&navType=Content&sr=MallSo, what size and shape do you want? Once you've got that sorted, people can make appropriate suggestions.

Alternatively, just get a set of decent winter tyres and go past all the stuck range rover sports...

[Andy Champ]

Depends what you call 4x4. A fair chunk of the Audi range IIRC. Not off-road style though!

Andy

[Andy Champ]

Badly worded I suspect. Normally "LOCK" means that both axles go at the same speed. Nothing to do with power distribution really. With the lock the power goes to the axle with most grip; without it the power will go to the single wheel that has least grip...

Andy

[Andy Champ]

Hi Sweetheart, (perhaps not the best greeting!)

After last winter the worst problem I had was on a dead flat road, with minimal snow. And 10,000 idiots in front of me. I could have _walked_ home faster. And my car has low profile summer tyres, RWD, low ground clearance. It's also too old for traction control or a limited slip differential.

That said, it was "interesting" in that weather, whereas my wife's Suzuki Swift (old model) with *** all power, little narrow wheels, no ABS and good ground clearance was positively fun.

I'd suggest you buy some winter tyres and wheels, and see what happens. If we get another bad winter buy a 4wd in the summer when they're cheap. Right now prices will be high because people think they need them.

Andy

[Chris Bartram]

The only way you'll get an upchange when overtaking is if you hit max revs, or lift off the throttle, and lets faceit, if you hit the limiter in a manual, you're going to stop accelerating. For cornering, if you're pressing on you can lock down any auto I've ever driven, if you really feel you need it.

[Roger Chapman]

snip

My views on autos were formed in the early 60s (or possibly even earlier as a schoolboy reading up on such 'wonders' as torque converters). I suppose rev limiters were around then but I didn't personally experience one until 1974 and it came as a bit of a disappointment on an engine that was at peak bhp (or at least as peak as it was allowed to get). On all bar one of my earlier cars if you had to you didn't change up until the engine started to run out of puff. The autos by contrast seemed to me to work on the assumption that if you weren't in a hurry you changed up as soon as the engine could pull in the higher gear and if you were in a hurry the change was still well short of maximum revs. OK so autos have got much more sophisticated over the years but so have manual transmissions and indeed engines. I occasionally bounce off the rev limiter these days because engines are so quiet and I don't like looking at anywhere other than the road when I am on the wrong side of it.

[Mortimer]

Mine were slightly later: although my dad had a couple of automatic cars in the 60s (I remember a Corsair that decided to change into first gear at 70 mph on the M1 - such as it was in those days - which must have been terrifying for Dad) I didn't drive an automatic until the early 80s. My dad's Sierra wasn't too bad but his Honda Accords/Aerodecks had very disconcerting automatic transmission which changed down far too early as soon as you applied even a little bit of accelerator, in a situation where I'd hold onto the existing gear and apply more power. Accelerating smoothly out of roundabout was a black art: either you apply a small amount of power which keeps you in the existing gear but you don't get enough acceleration or else you press the pedal fractionally more and the transmission changes right down and you get a sudden burst of too much power. Autos really need a way of locking them in *whatever* gear you are in, not just a way of locking them in a lower gear so they don't change up on a downhill.

The last auto I drove was a hired Ford Focus in 2002. And that was atrocious: it changed down as soon as I applied power so I could have 50 mph in any of 4th, 3rd or 2nd, but it was very difficult to make it stay in a high gear to let me go above 50. I'm sure it must have been faulty.

I dare say autos have improved since then, but judging my my dad's Citroen C5 (as a passenger) it still suffers from the dreaded torque-converter lag where a small increase in power just reduces the ratio of the TC and doesn't result in increased speed, so if you hit the accelerator there is a lag before the car starts to accelerate.

I prefer to be in control of the *timing* of the gear change (or have a transmission that automatically changes up at times that I would do). I don't mind if the actual gearchange is done automatically, but I prefer to have a solid mechanical link without a torque converter. I'd be interested to try a VW DSG gearbox.

[sweetheart]

O a, rea;;y going to bother for the week of snow we are going to get. The same goes for snow chains for what? Half a mile?

If I use snow chains on roads here I will get pulled over by the police in no time. I have seen it happen. Lots of talk from the boys here but little realism I feel.

A four by four will get the same snow use wont it? So its a glorified chelsea tractor for rural urbanite travel. Bottom line. But I( would still like one just for that half mile.

I asked about 4x4's I didnt ask for how to drive in snow information.

[sweetheart]

Boys toys are not on the list. I said so originally.

[sweetheart]

Someone suggested it so it went on the list.