OT - 4x4 automatic car.

[sweetheart]

Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a manual licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a confident driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic in the first place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without incident, so there.

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I will go to a dealer) or new. I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about 500 miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the Scudo for a

4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I might have to change his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual depending on what I can get).

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand new) car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an automatic. I have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers but they don't state which vehicles they will do as an automatic option.

I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and I am tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack. My old Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by a big firm who are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I could do with some advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I have had that from men in the motor trade. ( No , this is not my inheritance money but I do need a 4x4 to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort out the house I have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could be a better option).

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic and reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I don't care about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is useable in all weathers.

[Jethro]

x-posted to uk.rec.driving - ask the experts !

[Pete Zahut]

I know nothing about 4x4 cars so can't answer your question but, having driven automatics for the last 25 years, I don't understand what problem you're having in getting an auto. You say the dealers/salesmen are "sniffy" about autos - just tell them in no uncertain terms that that is what you want, end of.

When I passed my test at 17 back in 1975 I thought auto's were wussy and I never, ever, wanted one - until I drove one a few years later. Automatic gearboxes are definitely one of mankind's better inventions and I would never go back to a manual transmission now.

[Steve Firth]

Firstly, uk.d-i-y is not the usual place to ask this sort of question. The idea of Usenet is that there are a number of newsgroups and the title gives some clue to the sort of post that is on topic. You may get better answers or a better range of answers from uk.rec.cars.misc or uk.rec.driving, although having said that many people post there and here.

You also haven't given a budget or a preference for fuel type which makes recommending a particular vehicle somewhat difficult.

Your post gives the impression that you think that a 4x4 will work some magic and allow you to drive through conditions that will defeat other cars or that a 4x4 will somehow be "safer" in these conditions. Neither statement is necessarily true and in last year's snow I passed many stranded 4x4s. If you're going to get the best out of a 4x4 you need to get some training in addition to having a driving licence, particularly if you have never driven a 4x4 before. Also an automatic 4x4 is markedly inferior in coping with poor road conditions than a manual car.

Have you given a thought to the fact that many automatic 4x4 vehicles actually have multiple gear levers? For example I have two 4x4s at present, a Jeep and a Ford. The Jeep makes use of a second gear lever to change between 4x4 High ratio and 4x4 Low ratio. The Ford has a selector switch for rear wheel drive only, 4x4 high, 4x4 low. Other 4x4s also have other controls such as differential locks. If you're not confident or able to drive a manual, is a 4x4 with its plethora of controls going to be right for you? Only you can answer these questions and I'd recommend that before you spend cash on a 4x4 you actually get experience of driving one.

As to which one, again you have to decide. Do you want an off-road 4x4 (Land Rover/Jeep in appearance) or would you be happy with a 4x4 saloon car?

For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru Forester. These are essentially car-like, available with automatic gearboxes and are well built. You could also consider a Subaru Impreza, which is even more car like. The Forester is more "utility vehicle" and was designed around the needs of people who have horses or small farms and who need a tough vehicle with 4x4. Good low mileage Foresters and Imprezas start around £5k.

The other thing you need to think about is tyres. The tyres fitted to all cars and 4x4s in the UK are inadequate for winter use in snow. If you're going to be driving in snow you need to change the tyres on the vehicle to ones suitable for snow. These may be referred to as "Mud and Snow" or "Winter" although you can also use "All Terrain (AT)" tyres.

Winter tyres for a Forester will cost you about £100-130 each.

You'd also be well advised to pack a snow shovel, water, blankets/sleeping bags, HiVis vests or an insulated workman's fluorescent jacket, a torch and batteries and possibly some source of food that will last in the car. As mentioned earlier, I passed many 4x4s stranded in the snow last year and I heard that many drivers were in their cars for one to two days.

A Suzuki Jimny IMO isn't right for what you want, it's a car that be rolled fairly easily hence not a good first 4x4, and it would crucify anyone driving several hundred miles a week. If you insist on one of those then there is an automatic version. Check Autotrader to see if one is in a garage near you. Note that you have this week a choice of 10 auto Jimnys in the UK and 76 auto Foresters, so the Jimny auto is a rare (difficult to find) vehicle.

[Dave Liquorice]

There is a little Fiat Sedici 4x4 but don't know if it has an auto option. Auto boxes waste quite a bit of energy so tend not to be found on smaller engined cars.

[The Natural Philosopher]

we found the older Freelander - top of the range automatic with the BMW

2 liter turbodiesel - to be the exact right compromise - its a serious off roader especially if you get the tyres for that and a comfortable and refined 'up to 90 on a motorway' saloon as well. consumption is not great though. 33mpg typically on the auto.

WE use cars only when we have to these days.

[The Natural Philosopher]

there is no doubt that manual is more fuel efficient and generally better for smooth fast driving, but the wear and tear on the left foot and the left arm in traffic..

As I get older and my reflexes are not what they were, the auto is more and more useful.

Really, only 10% of the population could be said to drive a manual better than an automatic would,and I am not sure I count in that group any more.

[sweetheart]

This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive an automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

I didn't state type of fuel because it doesn't matter. I didn't state budget because it isn't that important - remember I am changing a 2 litre Scudo - expensive all round for this.

As for driving in snow. I did 100 miles from Exeter to Cornwall in blizzards last January , so I have experience of taking an automatic | ( Clio) over dartmoor and Bodmin Moor in snow. I also know about tyres, thanks.

I just thought a 4x4 would give me more options. I have a friend who has a Jeep which is automatic and I didn't see a mass of levers in his car thanks. Either way, please do not think that because I drive an automatic I cannot drive. My licence limits me, not my skills.

But thanks for the information about the Jimny. Scratch that. Again though , I like driving smaller vehicles although I would prefer one that will give me some flexibility ( not a saloon - I have a car .... my Clio, which I know experts are also sinify about but remember my Clio passed loads of equally stranded drivers of its " betters" on the way over Haldon Hill last year.)

Just looking for a decent , middle of the range vehicle . Not big and blously and as I said not a " boys toy". I am not looking for a " Top Gear" answer. I don't need a Jeremy Clarkson. I just want advice on a common all garden decent and reliable car ( 4x4 still remains a favourite as it is a common feature where I live - rural Cornwall , although no one type predominates).

I prefer not to be sleeping out Thanks. I want to get home. I judge my chances of that when I leave in a morning usually, although right now weather forecasts are next to useless frankly. I cant even work out if I should go sick Tuesday to avoid getting trapped in Exeter.

I asked in DIY and did put Off topic. I have usually found people in DIY to be more practical and user friendly. Thanks.

[Jeff Gaines]

Dealers are sniffy because you are a woman, they live in the last century.

Have a look at reviews on Australian web-sites, they don't pull their punches and a 4 x 4 that's tough enough for the Outback will certainly be tough enough here.

Suzuki Grand Vitaras are one of the few off-road cars that actually work off road so probably a good choice. The Jiminy and 3 door Grand Vitara jolt and bump and are very uncomfortable. I traded my 3 door Grand Vitara in for a 5 door 3months ago and it is a much more comfortable drive although it does tend to track a bit on poor road surfaces.

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD, what about taking your manual test?

X-Posted to uk.rec.driving.

[Roger Chapman]

Can I endorse what Steve has said and add just a bit from my own experience.

I ran a Land Rover for a few years around 1970 and 4x4s (Range Rover, Sierra Estate, Audi Quatro) for about 25 years from 1980ish to 2005. The Range Rover was the only one of the later three that really coped well in snow and even that, with the sort of tyres I had on it, wasn't as much cop as the ancient Land Rover which had been my first experience of

4x4. The Sierra was a delight to drive on greasy roads but not so much in snow. The Audi was a bit of a disappointment even on greasy roads with a tendency to travel in a straight line where better cars would turn in easily.

All 4x4s will give better traction than 2x4s but when you want to brake

2x4s have just as good brakes as 4x4s. ABS can be a pain in the snow if you want to stop going down a steep hill. With locked wheels you will lose the ability to steer but it is the build-up of snow in front of the wheels that slows you down, not the constant rotation that you get with ABS.

I was talking to a farming acquaintance this morning and he said that he hadn't needed to engage 4 wheel drive to get off his farm today. Some part time 4x4s have what I consider a significant shortcoming - no differential between front and rear drives which leads to the straight-on syndrome on bends. It used to be said when I was a youth that the most common place to see a Land Rover on a snowy road was ditched on a bend.

Ground clearance and particularly tyres make a world of difference in snow (or indeed in mud). I can remember one particular incident which illustrates the later. One particularly cold and snowy day I backed my Sierra out of the garage into perhaps 4" of new snow, no problem at all. Went to lock up and when I tried to drive off the car would no move. In the meantime the snow had turned to ice under the weight of the car and the wheels just spun uselessly even though the ground at that point was very near flat.

[sweetheart]

Interestingly the What Car site suggests the Suzuki Jimny as a good all rounder , quite different to here. So what am I to believe?

[Steve Firth]

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars, two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

Then I suggest you didn't look properly. There is a *huge* second gear lever to the left of the automatic gear selector.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Depends on the auto. The 'DSG' type is an automated synchromesh type with a servo plate clutch (or two) so not that far off as efficient as a normal manual. But the cost as a percentage of a small new car price might be too much.

[sweetheart]

That is not an option. I have a co ordination problem with my left foot and hand ( dyspraxia). I can work had eye and anything else but I cannot do foot eye and hand. Hence the automatic. Take away the clutch and I am fine.

I can drive paddle drives very well.

[sweetheart]

How many accidejnts have you had with your manual? I have driven for 30 years with no troubles at all. I drive 100 miles a day, and on rural roads, so not exactly without experience of difficult roads. However, you are right, I am limited. I have a slight dyspraxia which limits my ability to co ordinate my left foot for the clutch. Thats the issue. Not a " disability" officially, so not motorbility challenged, just safer in an automatic.

Probably safer than you my friend.

[sweetheart]

How do you define " as capable"? I tried for SIX years to co ordinate the clutch in a manual car and failed. I bought an automatic and took the test the next day and passed it first time. My driving skills match your sany day in terms of my " capability" to steer, watch the road, anticipate etc. I do not see that being good with the clutch makes you "more capable" as a driver - just better with a clutch. Thats not driving,

[Steve Firth]

When I had a Series Land Rover I very rarely needed 4x4. The big difference comes from the tyres and the Avons I used to have on it were able to plough through thick mud and snow. In fact when I sold it the new owner went on an off-road course and completed all of the tasks bar one. Then they were told that the front free-wheel hubs were broken and they had completed the entire course in 2WD.

[Steve Firth]

Buy the car you want to buy, live with the consequences of your choice. It's your money and will be your car. Personally I'd go for the Forester it's an infinitely better vehicle than the Jimny. Here's a clue, which of the two will you see most often on farms?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a modern decent auto.

My BMW has the Steptronic option. This allows you to select any gear by moving the lever back or forward - a bit like a motorbike box, but hand controlled. It works very well if you like that sort of thing - but in practice never gets used. The auto does what it says on the tin.

Some early synchromesh autos with paddle shifts didn't work well at all as autos. The latest ones are much better - but still not as smooth as a conventional auto with torque convertor.

The main problem is a decent auto costs. And are just made for larger cars. Smaller ones tend to get a stripped out/down sized version or some abortion like those belt driven types that have now thankfully near disappeared.

[Nightjar]

On 28/11/2010 09:34, sweetheart wrote: ...

Not a vehicle I have owned, but a couple of people I know like Subaru. However, many big uneconomic 4x4s have very low second hand values and are cheap to buy, so you might want to review your requirements to take that into account.

Colin Bignell