Hi all. My parent's house (4 beds) needs a new gas boiler. Quotes for this and to "modernise" the heating system range from just over 3K-4K - seems a lot of money. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the way to proceed. Is this a reasonable price? How do I watch for rip-offs etc? What *needs* doing from a legal point of view? My ideas are 1) scrap the gas completely and go all electric (is this possible with a water-based radiator system? Is it feasible on the cost front? Perhaps going with economy 7 for hot water (currently have a lagged tank in the airing cupboard).
Start by giving much more detail of the current system.
Boiler make/model/size/age, condition of pipework, radiators (do they look fine, or like they're all just about to rust through?), do they have thermostatic radiator valves, is there a room stat somewhere?
Also number of rooms, number of baths/showers and usage pattern, normal number of house occupents. Does the existing system cope (or did it when it was working properly)? Why does it need a new boiler now? Who did you get quotes from, and what do they include?
Boiler make - will look today, at least 20 years old. Occupants: 2 Showers: 2 a day (one each), baths once a week (each person) Radiators - mainly good condition 9one small leak on inlet (nothing serious) pipework: OK rooms: 4 beds, kitchen, dinning, living, hall, 2 bathrooms, storeroom. existing system: working OK, but very old and very expensive to run Quotes (don't actually have them but will report back)
What is the existing expense, given you are considering several £k to fix it? Repeated boiler breakdowns and callouts? Boiler servicing? Fuel?
In the latter case, what's the state of the insulation in the house? Loft? cavity wall? Drafty doors/windows? Fixing any of these might be a lot cheaper and more effective; you might gain as much as a 50% reduction in fuel. Replacing a 20 year old boiler is only likely to get around a 20% reduction, or possibly more if the existing controls (thermostat, etc) are wasteful and need replacing too. (You could replace controls by themselves.)
"Vista" wrote in message news:46346f4b$1 snipped-for-privacy@x-privat.org...
A new gasboiler isn't that expensive, you can get a combination one for around £600 and fitting it doesn't take long. Trade prices are even cheaper, especially to bigger companies. The system will be flushed out and refilled with a corrosion inhibiter. An entire new heating system with pipes etc will cost a lot, but is not required. Some companies will lie about replacing copper pipes and just use the old ones. If your parents are with british Gas, don't forget that they increased their prices by 91% in 12months using a variety of excuses. They recently reduced them slightly but are still 100% more expensive unit for unit than what I am paying with another company. People staying with BG are stupid or a bit too slow to understand what a price increase is! Your parents could get a simple replacement boiler (made by Ideal) for £400 to replace an old one on the type of system they have. I had mine done as I didn't want a combination boiler. It was put in a cupboard by the bathroom. A gas pipe was fitted, then the pipes feeding the old back boiler behind the living room fire capped off and the inlet/outlet connected to the heating system and tank. A new pump and valve were added. It took about 5 hours to sort out as a new programmer and thermostat were installed. A certificate was issued by the Corgi fitter and that was it! The flue just goes out of the wall and sticks out about 8 inches. The condensation drain drops in to a nearby hopper for the rainwater.
Unfortunately a lot of companies will try to rip you off and once they see older people that's it. Far too many want to get rich quick rather than provide a good service and get repeated custom. I know one local council that recommend a company who simply subcontract unqualified people to fit central heating. The council still refuses to stop recommending them as they paid "to advertise" in their local public info brochures.
As for storage heaters, I would be interested to know what you were quoted for that. It will mean floorboards coming up! Each heater will require it's own mains cable and that leads to a new consumer unit. Maybe a new main fuse. Also watch that the house is not fed from a cable used for a neighbour. This "one feed per two houses" used to be common practice years ago rather than each house having it's own main cable coming in from the street. I looked at a few houses in Chester that had gone on fire when the economy 7 kicked in due to overloading the supply cable. Then a lot of companies will not connect up your "old" house wiring so will suggest a rewire which again is an excuse for a blank cheque. On the economy 7 it's far more expensive per unit in the day, but cheaper at night. So in the day and especially summer you pay far more for electric.
I would stick to gas and get a few more quotes being specific in what YOU require. Tell the company you ONLY need a replacement boiler. The whole job including the supply and fitting of a condensing boiler should cost no more than £800 as a maximum.
If your parents are getting on a bit tell them to apply for a "warmfront grant" and they can get the boiler replaced for free (if they meet certain requirements), they can also get cavity wall insulation and loft/tank insulation free.
A load of bollocks. Sure in some cases it can be that easy but you have to take each job on it's own merits. You obviously harbour some grudge about something and therfore have a bitter and twisted biased outlook on this.
Where do you get this from? As long as it's safe then it can be reconnected. Even if it's unsafe it can be reconnected as long as you are made aware of the fact.
No, a rewire isn't a blalk cheque. IF the quotes are brought in before the job starts and it's carried out by a reputable company then there's no blank cheques involved.
Quote (EDF): de-sludge remove existing boiler, hot water tank, unnecessary piping, close flue hole fit new boiler (Vaillant Ecomax PRO 18E + fan assisted vertical flue each radiator to have new chromium Belmont Terrier Lockshield valve new tank 117L pre-lagged copper indirect cylinder
21mm plastic condense pipe install one Blackerloy anti-corrosive thermo 3kw immersion heater and power supply ACL LP 722 digital programmer supply Grundfos 15-50 variable head pump (to new cylinder) supply and fit RF2 24 hour wireless room thermostat cylinder thermostat - to control temp of hot water (in conjunction with hot water cylinder Honeywell three port controlling motorised value
13 amp switched fuse spur adjacent to boiler heating circuit to be reconnected (BSS 2871X copper) - pipework in in cupboard areas to be lagged in climatube poly lagging system filling with Sentinel x300 and cleaned, then Sentinel x100 inhibitor added. Refill system , balance and test £3,600
Now you've got at least one fairly comprehensive quote. Get some more and eventually you will have the market price for somebody doing the job for you. The EDF one doesn't seem bad considering the non-combi scope. Bechmark it against BG and an independent. You may be able to find cheaper. Only you can decide the value of going with a big name.
Well, except the the radiators and some of the pipework, that's a complete new central heating system.
I would find a local independant plumber and ask for a quote for replacing the boiler. They'll still do more than just that, but maybe get away with less than EDF and without the large company overheards.
You still didn't reply to my question about where the expense arises in the current system, maintenance, servicing or fuel.
The boiler is serviced once a year - normal cost for new or old boiler, I presume. Annual spend on gas about 800 quid breakdowns - non-yet, but the system is very old and will *need* to be replaced sometime soon I imagine.
So far nobody has mentioned the electricity only route, and whether that might be viable. I guess the water radiators would have to go, but so would the cost of the new boiler and the annual servicing. Anybody know anything about economy 7 or 10 or whatever it's called these days? My experience E7 heating is that it's crap, but hot water has been excellent.
You have a 4-bedroom house, not a starter flat. Losing GCH will knock thousands off the value of the house, disregarding the higher running costs you will face in the short term.
Fine if you're up and about all night, and sleep during the daytime. Otherwise, a waste of space!
Although modern electric storage heaters are better than earlier ones, they still leave a lot to be desired. You have to anticipate when it's going to be cold. If it's unexpectedly mild, they'll still give out some of their heat even if you don't want it. In cold weather they will have exhausted all the stored heat long before the next overnight boost is due. Electricity (even off-peak) is more expensive than gas.
Other than that, they're the best thing since sliced bread.
I have just found another quote - £3600 - for basically the same thing (but to include power-flushing). Interestingly, they include the "option" of going with a combi boiler - that's only £300 cheaper at £3300
BTW I'm not justifying quotes only reflecting what appears to be market reality but as a component of house value the cost is neither here nor there. Question - do the rads appear at the bottom indicating sludge - which may or may not be cleared by power flushing - never tried so can't vouch.
You touched on maintenance but it hasn't been discussed much. FWIW I think there are market realities here too. Factor in £13 or so per month for a maintenance contract unless you are prepared to trust to "market realities" when the chips are down. Again your choice. A DIYer might have a different view.
Your most focussed advice has been is the boiler/system upgrade necessary. Implicitly your answer has been not quite yet so if its under contract why bother until forced? OTOH now is a good time of year and you are right, eventually something will have to be done. And the electrical option is daft.
To be honest, room sealed boilers don't generally need servicing every year. Open flued boilers most certainly do.
I'm still having trouble working out _why_ you want to do anything to this system now. The expenditure would appear to be mainly on fuel. It may well be that for very much less outlay, you could improve the insulation in the house and save significantly more than you would save on gas with a new boiler. You might achieve payback in a year or two, whereas it's more likely to be 10 years payback on the quotes you have.
In fuel terms, it's pretty well always very much more expensive, which would seem to defeat what you're trying to do.
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