New elec regs and the bloke nextdoor

This self-employed chap who is completely rewiring my neighbour's house (and AFAIcan see is doing a good job) appears to be unaware of the new regs coming in rsn. I just asked what he thought of this new legislation and he seemed genuinely surprised, saying "oh that won't come in for at least 5 years". (I don't think he reads uk.diy somwhow). Maybe a lot of such folk are in for a nasty surprise.
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It is entirely possible that he is not a member of NICEIC, because at present he doesn't need to be.
To be honest, having spoken directly to a couple of people in the local council who will be personally responsible for supporting this new legislation, I am reliably informed that neither NICEIC nor government have yet advised local councils that from April 1st 2004 they are going to have a shitload of work arriving on their doorstep, even for carrying out checks on properties updated with council workmen!
Seeing as the budget cycle for 2004 must be about done by now it is my belief that there is no way our destructive government will force this into practice in about 6 months time. Maybe 2005 or 2006 - but the general election will be looming, so it might get pushed back further.
PoP
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More than likely in fact. The government estimated around 40% of electricians were members of one of the trade bodies. The trade itself estimates this to be much lower, at just over a 1/4 of electricians.
--
Andrew Gabriel

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On 14 Oct 2003 09:34:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

I wonder whether this legislation is actually going to make much difference?
What are the government going to do if lots of sparkies say "sod off"? Put them before the courts? Have homeowners sucked in to become witnesses?
I tend to think that this government are living on borrowed time as far as dictating to sheep are concerned. Government can dictate what they like, but sooner or later there will be an uprising (for example the fuel issue a couple of years ago).
PoP
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The parties dont seem to worry too much about that. When people are totally fed up with cons they vote lab, and when theyre sick of lab they vote con. Like ping-pong. So really the 2 lots can do almost whatever, and know theyll be in power half the time.
So much for democracy.
Regards, NT
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On 14 Oct 2003 14:58:24 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote:

Quite! In recent years I've resorted to writing "none of the above" through all the boxes sideways, and shall continue in that, until such time as they provide a box for me to tick to that effect. I'd also not mind in the slightest at that point if they made it a legal requirement that I vote!
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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wrote:

I wouldn't go so far as to force people to vote. But I would put forward a motion that those who don't vote have their council tax doubled..... ;)
Labour prides its majority - achieved from only 25% of the voting public having put them in office.
PoP
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"PoP" wrote | I wouldn't go so far as to force people to vote.
Oh I would. In person at the polling station. At least twice a year. I need the clerking fees!
Owain
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On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:59:44 +0100, "Owain"

Tsk. Always someone wanting to make a few bob out of the disgruntlement of others ;)
PoP
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wrote:

I'd take him any day over "The Elected", as his potential damage to the rest of the world is way smaller than that of those in power! ;O)
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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wrote:

I could go with that up to a point, however they seem to be taking more and delivering less at present and I'd not want to encourage that trend just now! ;O)

I feel that if we have a way of saying we don't think we have an electable bunch to choose from then we should be able to say that through the ballot; it seems to me at least that until you have that, then whatever you have got, it probably isn't true democracy whatever it's called.
I can't bring myself to not vote as I feel it's important, but I can't see what choice I have to do other than I presently do, so make my feelings known. Obviously taking it to an MP is pointless, as it won't serve them at all to have it work the way I think it really should.
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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They'll prosecute sparkies one by one. Householders probably wont need to get involved beyond making a statement. Officials wil be involved in assessing the install.
Any householders affected will be told their installation is dangerous, even when it isnt, and the nation will be warned against tkaing on cowboys, and told what docs to check to see their sparky is approved.
Some might not buy it, but most will.
Regards, NT
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"N. Thornton" wrote | They'll prosecute sparkies one by one. Householders probably wont need | to get involved beyond making a statement. Officials wil be involved | in assessing the install. | Any householders affected will be told their installation is | dangerous, even when it isnt, and the nation will be warned against | tkaing on cowboys, and told what docs to check to see their sparky is | approved.
I think the way things are going with an overly-litigious society, insurance companies will start to demand gas/electricity safety certificates before issuing policies (and everyone with a mortgage has to have the property insured, so will be caught by that) and if there is an electrical fire or whatever the house insurer will then claim against the electrician's insurance.
Which will put the electrician's insurance premiums up, of course. (Higher premiums = more insurance tax for the govt.)
And retailers will start demanding NICEIC cards at point of purchase as otherwise insurers will refuse to cover them in case the retailer gets sued for supplying goods to someone incompetent to install them, similar to if you want to hire a chainsaw you (should) have to prove you're competent to use it first.
I'm a little surprised it hasn't already happened with gas items, but I think it will only take one case of a shop being found to have breached its duty of care in selling something to someone not qualified to use it for them to decide it isn't worth the risk selling gas and electrical items to DIYers and to only sell to trade customers only.
If any government ministers read the humour part of the FAQ they'd probably introduce a mandatory licensing scheme for purchasers of expanding foam.
Owain
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wrote:

That's effectively what we do with cars: anyone can change brake pads or whatever but once a year the condition of the vehicle has to be assessed by an authorised tester.
For properties that are let landlords already have to get a annual safety certificate, and in some places regular electrical checks too. Requiring the production of test reports when you sell a property would not be totally without merit (more sensible than the present proposals); equally one might assume that if there was a real problem in this area mortgage companies would already be asking for them (the NHBC scheme, for all its faults, was brought in in the 1930's by building societies, not HMG)
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
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On 14 Oct 2003 09:34:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

As little as that? It was partially those new regs that stopped me looking further into getting trained up and becoming a self-employed sparky. The main bit though was not being able to find any training courses that were less than 2 years long. Still being signed on (but not collecting benefit hence I'm not part of the jobless stats...hmm...) means I'm not allowed to go back into full time education.......
cheers
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writes:

I reckon that courses will start up aiming to take you from scratch to exam standard in a very short space of time. They do for everything else, why should this be different? Then it'll mean a load of inexperienced yet fully qualified electricians will be out advertising for work. Good for the consumer?
Rgds
Andy R
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wrote:

Everybody's got to start somewhere :)
cheers
witchy/binarydinosaurs
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Andy R wrote:

Hardly I think. 1) A good number of the newly qualified will be part time pro sparkies who are pissed off at having now to be qualified and registered and having to shell out a load to do so. 2) They won't be the inexperienced ones. 3) There will still be too few of them.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
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Depends what you mean by getting "trained up" - what is your education to date? If you have a practical background and a physics-type grounding then you can "get qualified" in next to no time. To quote from the NICEIC website, in order to join:
"For those without formal training or electrical qualifications [you need] City & Guilds 2380/2381 (16th Edition) Certificate plus City & Guilds 2391 (Inspection, Testing and Certification) Certificate."
The 2391 requirement can even be waived if the assessor is happy that you can work to its standards. Of course you also need to have copies of the regulations, have been trading for 6 or 12 months (the website is ambiguous on this one) and have completed work to show the assessor.
The 2381 and 2391 are available at many Further Education establishments and needn't cost much or take very long. I did the 2381 while unemployed. It cost me 20 to register but the course was free (as unemployed). There was a total of about 7 sessions of 3 hours once a week and then the exam. The 2391 is a bit more involved (doing that next) but needn't take 2 years. I have no formal electrical qualifications, though I do have a degree in electronics and have worked with LV for many years. The attitude of the college was that I could start the course and that if I really wasn't up to it I'd either drop out or fail.
The IEE also runs courses, though these are a *lot* more intense, and a lot more expensive. The 2381 is 2 days and the 2391 is 3 days. See http://www.iee.org/Events/Courses/ for more information.
HTH
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk /
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk /
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On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:23:51 +0100, Martin Angove

I've got a very practical background since I used to be a datacentre computer specialist involved in everything from desktops to the stuff that (sometimes wrongly) produces your phone bill, maintenance and programming of, but moving to a kak school in the late 70s stymied any physics or maths work I wanted to do - I failed my maths o'level so they wouldn't let me do electronics because they were more interested in a good grade in the exam results in the local paper than they were at supporting students....I went from straight A's to ok-ish in a year......
but I digress :)

Sounds good to me; so far my experience has been all the wiring work on this house (nigh on total rewire) and partially rewiring and bringing up to current spec one of our tenanted places - that work has been passed by the relevant bodies and I've got the certificate to prove it - and stuff at my parent's house

Since I'm only attending the job centre to get my NI stamp paid I can probably do the intensive stuff, but bloody hell that's expensive! Maybe they should consider not holding such seminars in expensive hotels and using local colleges instead.....
Thanks Martin,
witchy/binarydinosaurs
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