More water supply issues... argh! Clot, if you're around....

[None]

I've had a couple of threads here over the past year or so, and I just cannot find out what is causing the problem still in my house. Basically, our water supply is slimy, and contains black particle 'dirt' and at the moment even has small rapidly moving 'organisms' swimming around, look like large protozoa (around 1-2 mm), if anyone knows what they are. There is also other small transparent organic material floating in there half the time too. The water has quite a yellow cast to it most of the time also!

Our pressure is pretty high, I've had a leak detection expert out, he says we don't have a leak. We have no real chlorine residual, this could be causing the problem, along with poor maintenance. Our local county council has tested the water twice last year, and despite not sending me out the results, say it passes regs. I'm in Ireland, not the UK, so thats the way it is here.

Having asked our neighbours, they seem to be blase about it, so I dont know what the heck is actually the root cause. Possibly corroding unlined cast iron mains, which are the staple in my region, but why the onset of these horrible organisms?

I'm stumped...

[jim]

Could be a crack/hole in your supply admitting silts and creepies - how did the expert test for "leaks" exactly?

You could get a sample analysed yourself and get a professional opinion - then blab to the papers if they don't fix it....

Jim

[None]

The leak guy closed off the external stopcock for a bit, turned it back on after a while saying that if there were a leak, he would expect to see soil in there, there wasnt any. He also had various gauges with him to test pressure flow etc. He said 'I'm not in the business of turning down money, in my opinion you have no leak.' He seemed very skeptical from the outset that we had one, as there were no wet spots or any other indications.

Guess it will have to be a private lab sample then...

[jim]

so was he testing for leaks inside the building? as opposed to on the supply pipe to the stopcock?

Another thought - assuming the grot comes out of all taps including kitchen cold tap :- could you have some sort of water cistern/tank in attic/loft that could be the source of the grot? perhaps some seasonal activity disturbs general attic dusts, mortar etc into the tank and also offers a breeding ground for creepies? (turn off supply and turn on kitchen tap - if it still flows as "normal" for morer than a few seconds you must have a tank somewhere....)

in UK generally one would expect that the kitchen tap (at least) would be fed direct from the supply *not* via a storage tank of any sort. If there's grot from your kitchen tap and it's supplied direct from your supply pipe then there *must* be a problem either in the supply pipe to the stopcock *or* in the pipe from stopcock to kitchen tap....

cheers jim

[None]

No, the kitchen tap is fed from the main alright, no doubt about that! We have the same plumbing system as you English fellers. God, that would be an oversight to end all oversights though. Also, the guy was not testing for leaks inside the house, he was testing for leaks on the pipe run between the external stopcock on the footpath and the kitchen tap. Hope that clears that up.

[Toby]

Moving bits are NOT good!!

To test for leaks yourself, you could get one of these

it to your outside tap, assuming you have one, and turn the tap on. This should then register the mains water pressure. (gauge connector will probably connect to a washing machine tap too)

If you then make sure everything in the house is not calling for water, then turn your main stopcock off in the house. If the pressure drops, water is getting out somwhere.

If this is all OK, then open your stopcock in the house, and turn the one off outside in the road, if it drops now, you have a leak between the house and the road shut-off.

Toby..

[None]

these

connect it to your outside tap, assuming you have one, and turn the tap on.

Toby,

I think thats more or less what this guy did... though our washing machine is outside in the shed, and would be the 'garden tap' point. I dont think he tested the pressure from there. One other thing; I have noticed that if the organic debris is present, its not in the water if you run the tap for a more than a few seconds. If you run the mains tap continuously, its not there. then, often when you turn it back on, one of those green buggers is there, along with maybe some random organic debris, but keep running the tap and no matter how many glasses you fill up, nothing is there. Though the black particles are more often than not present no matter what.

Argh indeed..

[Chris J Dixon]

Is this perhaps indicating that the green stuff is actually living in the pipework beyond the kitchen tap? Or maybe in the supply pipe, with just the loosest bits being flushed out each time?

Assuming the installation is stop tap -> kitchen -> bathroom ->

header tank, do your observations differ at each point? What is the state of the header tank? What do you find from the hot water taps? Is there a dead leg in the pipework?

Chris

[Bob Mannix]

Having followed this thread and watched the probable being discounted, I am also coming to the suspicion there's a dead leg somewhere (old feed to neighbouring property etc., or something). Water companies have pipe pingers where you clip a transmitter to the pipe where it comes in the house and detect the signals above the pipes outside. Might be worth mapping the pipe and seeing if there are any unexpected legs?

[None]

messagenews: [e-mail]...

Ok, I think I finally know what these 'creatures' are. A water engineer told me that sometimes Daphnia, or water fleas, can enter into mains water on lower flow areas. They only count as an aesthetic concern apparently. Do a Google image search for Daphnia, they look just like what I am seeing, and the way the movement is described is EXACTLY what I am seeing. Further to this, the egg clusters that come from the females are black... this could explain why we have a problem with black particles... I was hoping it was just manganese or something such like. I am not sure about that part, but I'm certain that the creatures are Daphnia... they are about 1mm - maybe 2mm in size.

I dont know what pipe pingers are, I doubt we have them here, our water is governed by local councils, not water companies. How would I find out about the pipe run though? God, this is complicated .......

[None]

messagenews: [e-mail]...

And in the last couple of hours when we run the tap we are getting loads of black particles in the supply. Very bad situation here, I dont understand why this has to happen.

[Bob Mannix]

Everything has an explanation, you just haven't found it yet! I suspect some digging and inspection of the incoming main may be required though and perhaps an independent assessment from someone local - they may even have seen similar.

[Tim Downie]

Are you *sure* that you're on a mains supply and not a private pumped well (perhaps shared with a few houses locally)? Might explain the lack of chlorine and multitude of bugs.

(Don't mean this to sound patronising, just want to know if you've considered the possibility)

Tim

[None]

I really think that the problem is mains related. We only get these water fleas entering the supply during the daytime when there is a lot of flow in the mains. If it were our service pipe I would expect their presence to be constant. I also left the mains kitchen tap running for a long time yesterday to see if that would help, and it only seemed to bring a lot of dirt towards us from the mains. I was told that we are on a two-way directional feed on my road, so if demand for the water is high where we are, then it is likely that we will bring sediment etc towards us from both sides and into our supply.

The amount of black stuff is much less now that some time has passed. The water has always been poor for us, and we have no chlorine residual, so I will have to get on to the water department next week and ask them to air scour the inside of the cast iron mains on the road. There is always a colour to the water, as well as a slimy feel and black particles, but I let it go up to now. Last year, we were having similar problems, and the water people flushed the mains and it made a HUGE difference for a while before reverting back to its state. I guess something more drastic could be needed than mere flushing.

[None]

d

[None]

Haha, no... I live in a Dublin suburb, in a vey built up area, so there's no chance of that. By way of confirmation, I was told some time ago that we are on a heavily used mains supply. And we do have a trace of chlorine on some rare occasions, its just that the iron pipes must be in such a bad condition around us that the corrosion and biofilms are using it up mostly. There must also be a real lack of chlorine boosters around the supply area where we are. Its all very haphazard really.

Last year I asked them to flush the mains after having years of poor slightly discoloured water, and the effect was HUGE! The water became absolutely crystal clear for a few days as I recall. It also felt so much cleaner on the skin. It eventually went back to a bad state, but it just goes to show you. The neighbours around us NEVER complain about it, and have no desire to get tangled up in arguments with the water depot. Unfortunately, the local water depot is a hive of ignorant and disrespectful morons who have no desire to assist consumer complaints. They will flush your mains once if you have an issue, making it appear better for a while. But because they only flush one mains on a road, it has no long term benefit. They won't countenance the prospect of more aggressive cleaning methods unless water tests show up high levels of coliforms. To them, everything else is explainable by way of shrugs and the words 'aesthetic problem only.'

The water has gotten so bad though that I will have to call them next week. I am pretty much ruling out my service pipe as being the problem for the moment. I need them to understand the gravity of the problem, and I have bottled evidence of these water fleas and other detritus if they need that. If they carry out a proper form of scouring, and the effect is non-existent (highly unlikely) then I will fork out and replace the service pipe.

[Clot]

None, I've been away for a few days hence the late reply. The above reference could be of help.

It really does sound like a corroded and biofilmed main to me. And the low chlorine provides just the conditions that they need to thrive. Balance point and dead legs also help them.

You may note that airscouring is mentioned - just as I did in a previous post but it sounds to me that this will only provide temporary relief.

Dosing with pyrethroids gives longer relief but I think the key is to ensure that there is a free chlorine in the water and relining of the main.

Since you are having no joy with the Water Department, how about inviting the local press to have a look at the "free added protein" that the Water Dept is providing you?

[None]

Thanks Clot, would you believe another engineer pointed me to that exact page last night, and I read through it. Very informative indeed. It seems to describe exactly what we're going through here, and makes me determined to do what I can to ease things. Only thing is, on all these manuals, they always describe the lowest point of chlorine that has been commonly dealt with as something like 0.08 mg/l... I mean we're lucky if it ever rises to, say, 0.02mg! I realise that no matter what, the conditions will never be ideal, I just want to improve things. If it is a lone fight, the best I can do is get them to air scour... maybe. Anyway, considering that no maintenance is ever done around here, it might actually have more of an effect than one may think.

Relining would be the best, but they didnt listen to me last year, and wont either this. So I will put pressure on them to air scour. As for getting the press involved, that is something I would be hugely reluctant to do. For one thing, if they asked the other neighbours, they would contradict me! They're quite elderly on both sides of us, and have no issue with the water. It must be the same water as us, but hey, whatever. Another is that with my luck, the journos would come over to look at the supply in our kitchen, and it would run clear! It can change from one hour to the next. Sigh.

[Pete C]

Goldfish LOVE daphnia!

Be glad there aren't tubifex worms coming out of the tap...

cheers, Pete.

[Clot]

Like taking the car to a garage with an intermittent fault!

The fact that it can change so rapidly does suggest you are on a balance point!