I am considering using kitchen grade laminate flooring on my kitchen floor. the run would only be about 12 ft long by about 6 ft. is it really necessary to leave a 10mm gap around the edges for such a small area?
Yes, or you "will" have a big bump in the middle when it gets hot.
I would agree on leaving the 10mm gap at opposing ends of the 12ft run, but you can obviously halve the gap to 5mm at the other 2 sides. It is safe to assume expansion will be proportional to length in any direction.
Or heat the room to the hottest it *could* ever get in the wildest fanstansies of summer allowing extra for the room being sunbaked with the windows closed (say 40C) and lay the material with no gap - but that would be sweaty work ;->
Tim
I've just done this to my kitchen. I removed all the skirting boards and sawed under the door architraves so that the gap was concealed under them - after I replaced the skirting obviously. It looks a treat and won't buckle in the heat.
Cheers
Does wood expand when it gets hot ?
It seems to me that in my house wood expands when it's cold & wet and shrinks when it's hot & dry.
That's the best way and what we did but there are still some who thinks it look OK with an edging attached to the skirting. I think it looks a dog but what do I know?
Recently I noticed that this (with the edging) is the way it was done at the West Yorkshire Playhouse restaurant/community area.
It looks cheap.
Blech.
Mary
There are two different effects here. Wood tends to swell when wet, but it will also expand due to temperature by a very similar amount to steel, all other effects remaining constant. That might very well be offset by the drying out shrinkage.
Then again, there's not much "wood" involve in laminate. So the question is whether an MDF like substrate will expand when damp? That I don't know.
Tim
I've been to a village hall where no expansion was allowed for the laminate flooring. there was a huge hump in the middle of the floor and no chairs or tables were stable in that part.
A son was asked to remove laminate flooring from a kitchen where it had been laid with no gap. It wasn't a huge area but there were humps.
The reasons aren't worth arguing about, expansion gaps are essential if the floor is to remain flat.
Mary
It does, and with everything there is a But.........
If you are putting this flooring down In a nice older house the skirting boards aren't going to come off without a fight, and you stand a good chance of splitting them into much smaller bits. You now have to find replacement 8ins mouldings to match your possibly hand made originals, Very expensive.
Then accident time, very common with the cheep stuff. Oh ive got a few spare boards left in the loft, oh I have to take the skirting off (and most of the wall decoration and plaster with it) again to replace one board.
Next week laminate flooring is now considered tasteless junk (should have been last month) Oh I now have a nice big gaps under all my door posts.
YMMV :-)
Absolutely agree Mary. Better to have too much gap rather than too little.
However the question was whether 10mm should be blindly applied in every case. The answer is, 10mm is safe in all reasonable circumstances, but can I believe be reduced quite safely for smaller rooms.
I laid laminate in the hall of my former flat in London, which was long and thin and offset. I cut the gaps down to 3-5mm along the sides opposing the shorter dimension (about 1.2m) as 10mm was not necessary, but more importantly, it was rather useful to do so around the fiddly bits like multiple adjoining door frames where a larger gap would look obvious and unsightly.
Certainly survived a cycle through one of the hottest summers seen down south. Biggest problem I had was the cr*p state of the subfloor - great build quality, these 1980's flats!
Tim
Not a personal dig at you or anyone, just pointing out some of the pitfalls in a tongue in cheek way. Must be a full moon :-)
-- Mark§
I realised that, I don't take offence even when there are real digs at me :-) It says more about the digger than about me.
I do think that the favourable side should be put. I agree that badly laid cheap laminate flooring doesn't look nice - but (to me) most people's houses don't look nice anyway. Who am I to judge? If you're going to do it it must be done well, then it will last a long time. It can always be covered if you get fed up of it!
I wish we could see it ... :-(
Mind you, then it would be cold ... heigh ho!
Mary
I agree. When we got our caravan the first thing to come out was the carpet. A shag pile carpet in a caravan! Goodness knows what lived in it - the hens certainly found munchy bits!
We did our bathroom about thirty years ago when we had no money. We used oblong cork tiles in a herringbone pattern. Someone had given us a pile of waste from the manufacture of head gaskets, we made a jig and cut our own! It's still going strong, unbelievably. The lavatory was done with one pack of proper cork tiles, they were even better but we could only afford one pack and didn't have enough of the others to do even that small space.
The bathroom floor isn't slippery but if it were I'd put down a mat. We do anyway, come to think of it, a simple cotton (washable) thing from Ikea I believe. Plain white. Nothing objectionable.
I can't remember the make, it was years ago. It was a high spec, heat, cold, grease, acid, alkali, everything proof, recommended for industrial use I think. After sanding (with a hired machine which was worth every penny) we wiped down the boards with white spirit to get all the dust off then used a
10% varnish solution, brushed on. Then about three full coats, lightly sanded between. Each coat was allowed to dry absolutely thoroughly between coats and we didn't use the room during that time. When we did go in to paint another coat we had bare feet covered with tea towels. We could have used socks if we'd worn them! We used a matt finish so while the colour was brought out and it's a smooth finish it's not shiny. The room faces due south and there are enough reflective surfaces in it, we didn't want to attract attention to the floor.That was the dining room. My workroom/office was done a couple of years before, using a high gloss finish. It hasn't been as durable as the dining room - which gets more wear. The varnish under my wheeled typing chair has worn off. I should re-do it but there are always more interesting things to do ... Spouse's wheeled typing chair hasn't damaged the dining room floor at all.
Good luck to you, it was just the all pervading dust even though we kept all doors shut. It's so fine ... it seemed to go on and on ... although masks were used when actually sanding I'm sure what we breathed the rest of the time wasn't healthy. There were no children around though.
Our floors are pine and acceptable but if we had to replace them we'd go to the reclamation yard.
We have to replace the 30yo vinyl in our kitchen. I don't think I want laminate in there but I'm not looking forward to replacing the old stuff. Spouse built a unit on top of the vinyl :-( I've worn through the pattern in front of the sink and my chain is getting a bit thin too but I daresay we'll continue until I get right through the vinyl ... Perhaps we'll use floor paint. There are some very durable ones in attractive colours. He could simply cut through the vinyl leaving the unit undisturbed ...
Mary
A question: I'm getting reasdy to lay a fair sized one (~ 12' x 12') in my kitchen, and am wondering as to the best way of dealing with white goods. Does one lay it underneath them (risk of expansion/contaction dragging them back and forth, and maybe humping) or does one stop it short of them, in which case how does one get a good edge with the required movement?
Cheers
Tim
Hi
Pull 'em out and lay the whole floor - much better that way. The expansion/contraction isn't going to be a problem.
However, as much as I like laminate, I would recommend thinking again for kitchens/bathrooms. It is very slippery when wet and you'll need to get the absolute best quality water resistant type. And glue every last inch of the joints. Clicky stuff is good elsewhere, but it does open up slightly (hairline gaps) which aren't normally an issue, but in a kitchen they are going to fill with grease and cr*p.
We used a decent cushion vinyl and it was very nice.
HTH
Tim
Remove the plinths, lay to the legs, trim the plinths and replace.
As long as you leave expansion gaps at the walls!
I'd agree with that. Except that when I went to bed I put to him my idea of cutting out the vinyl in our kitchen and using floor paint and he said it was a good idea. Couldn't find anything to argue about - it was a strange feeling! We shall have gaps between the boards but they're pretty large and cr-p can be vacuumed or swept out. I don't drop grease as a rule.
My dream is to have a 12' x 12' kitchen ... :-(
Mary
Thanks Tim, I'll follow your advice. I've got the grade specified for Kitchens/Bathrooms, but re gluing the joints (which sounds an excellent idea) which adhesive would u reccommend? (PVA......water resistance? PU....messy job? I can't believe it's going to work.....too much solvent/mess?)
Cheers
Tim
Bearing in mind I didn't lay laminate in my kitchen or bathroom...
Use whatever glue is normally sold for laminate. I suspect it is some sort of waterproof PVA. You didn't say whether you have clicky stuff or traditional glue-fit planks?
The clicky stuff *can* be backed up with glue, but as the joint mating is tight, thick glue in a going-off state can make it difficult to get the joint closed (friend's experience). You need to be quick.
***In short, if using non-clicky stuff (tongued and grooved fit) follow the manufacturer's instructions, but consider gluing along the whole tongue to give improved water resistance.
***If clicky, well, I wouldn't have used that in a kitchen myself, so I might consider doing the following myself (in theory):
Cut a plank (the dodgiest looking on in the pack, there's sometimes a slightly damaged one, so this is a good use) into 4-6 pieces and test your assembly method. Remember that the long lengths are going to be several times more difficult, if you are detecting problems with the test samples.
Go sparingly with the glue (long thin line rather than dollops of it). You might need to experiemnet with *very slightly* thinning the glue down with water (assuming it's bog standard PVA).
Let the glue go off and test the joint.
I haven't actually done this, but I think it would work. The glue will help to seal the joints so water spills are less likely to find their way under the laminate and damage it or the underlay/subfloor from beneath, and the glue will also lock the planks into one rock solid floating floor which means it will expand and contract on mass, rather than opening hairline gaps at every joint. Of course, you will never get teh planks apart after this.
Given the caveats I've mentioned, it would be worth waiting a couple of days and see if anyone else pops up who actually did lay laminate in a wet room, they will undoubtedly have some tips :)
Any doubts with any of this, fall back on the manufactuers instructions - I just said *I* wouldn't use clicky in the kitchen because I've seen how it behaves with temperature cycling, but if you keep the floor clean and minimise/mop up quickly spills it will probably be OK. I have had minor spills occasionally and it held up, but I've always jumped on them with a cloth immediately.
HTH
Tim
Tim, thanks very much for this careful description. My stuff is the clicky sort (but specifically reccommended for K/B so here's hoping - you've scared me a little with your reservations!). Experimenting with a sacrificial length sounds a must. I am wondering about PU adhesive - a while back I got an 800 ml squeezy bottle/narrow nozzle arrangement from Screwfix. The adhesive looks v like thin golden syrup, and can be laid in a thin bead with a steady hand. Has an open time of around 20 mins, governed by temperature. Foamed v slightly on setting, but only if there was space. Sticks like %^&* to a blanket. What would kill it is if I cannot preventing it squeezing out of the top joints, it's messy as hell! I think I will give this a trial (probably alongside PVA) in the experiments. The dilution ideas with PVA could help as well.
All the best
Tim
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