B&Q Kitchens

[usenet]

Modern non-integrated dishwasher have nice buttons too. The difference is that you don't have to second guess what you did before you closed the door, it tells you what it's doing. The problem we've had is that with a delayed start how do you tell you've set the delay correctly? Also how does anyone know if the machine is running or not if it's at a quiet point in the cycle?

Yes, it's balanced but the door still has a lot of inertia (i.e. mass), when it swings down it bangs on those hinges whether you like it or not. A non-integrated door simply has much less mass and doesn't do so much damage.

... don't have to be white.

Do you make the hob look as if it's part of the worktop? Or make the cupboards look like the walls? Why not?

[Neil Jones]

you seem to be confusing inertia, mass and momentum here

[Christian McArdle]

Indeed. The one non-integrated appliance I'm planning is the cooker. A black Rangemaster Classic 90, which should fill a nice hole in the old fireplace (actually the new fireplace since we had the dimensions changed rather dramatically). White goods (or grey) would have looked awful in the kitchen, which is based on oak, slate and granite. In a more modern context, they can look fine.

Christian.

[Owain]

"Christian McArdle" wrote | > As above, why go for integrated? We have a lovely big tall | > fridge which looks exactly like what it is, a fridge. | That depends if you think big white appliances look cheap and | crap. I do, but many don't.

Cheap big white appliance + car spray paint + masking tape = very expensive looking appliance. Works fine with things that don't get hot and don't have lots of intricate bits, so perhaps not for cookers.

Owain

[shaun]

Was done 13 months ago and there is one very small piece on one of the wall hung cupboards that i've managed to catch and pull off. It was one of the first bits that I put on so i'm thinking I didn't use enough heat to melt the glue....

Agreed - it would have looked dreadful with the white fronts on the units showing.

[NoSpamThanks]

In message , Christian McArdle writes

Whether you do one or other depends on more than whether the item is built-in or not. Our Bosch d/w requires the pressing of one button once for it run on its default setting.

[G&M]

No - but have a look at the Wickes range (not the takeaways) provided you can wait a month. Door quality is a little better IMO.

If you like Halogens - Stoves do three widths at fair prices through the Internet. Not the best name but a good product.

[Christian McArdle]

Obviously there are always counter examples, particularly in the higher end makes. However, the majority of fully integrated dishwashers have electronic controls, whilst the majority of semi integrated and free standing models have motorised switches.

Christian.

[Christian McArdle]

Yes, I got mine from MFI. No problems at all with quality on any components. The carcases come with brown fronts instead of white, so you can get away without using the iron on edging, although doing so would still provide some improvement as the woodgrain might beat straight brown.

Christian.

[usenet]

Inertia and mass are basically the same in this context. Momentum is a consequence of moving mass.

Whatever I'm confusing a heavy door, even if perfectly counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a light one will.

[Christian McArdle]

Mine seems quite well damped. It basically has to be pulled/pushed all the way down. If you let go, it stops fairly rapidly rather than bouncing at the end.

Christian.

[Neil Jones]

Inertia is a concept. Mass is a measureable property.

I'm not at all sure this is so - it depends as much (or more) on the speed the door is moving at, as well as the mass involved.

Also, presumably the manufacturers of the machine will specify a maximum door weight the hinges are designed to support. A non-integrated appliance will have a door with known weight and can use the lightest (read cheapest) hinges which will do the job.

[usenet]

So?

Well yes, that's stating the obvious too. But if I push the door down to the end stop at (approximately) the same speed which would seem to be a reasonable assumption then the heavy door will bang the endstops harder.

Maybe! In practice I suspect they're all the same (i.e. integrated mechanics are similar to non-integrated) simply for cheapness sake.

Certainly our Baumatic integrated doesn't have any specification for the weight of the door that I can find and I'm not at all convinced that the hinges are up to the job with a wooden panel on it. I have to say I'm not all that impressed with Baumatic in general (the dishwasher anyway) so maybe other makes are better. However I still fail to see how even brilliant design can get over the inherent problem of having no external indicators at all to tell you what's going on (or isn't).

[usenet]

But the integrated controls however they are implemented can never overcome the major disadvantage of lack of display. Having bought an integrated dishwasher for our current kitchen I certainly won't do so again. It can't tell you whether you (or someone else) has turned it on properly, it can't tell you if it's going to run in some hours time, it can't tell you that it's finished. In a household with several people who have independent timetables an integrated dishwasher is a real nuisance for these reasons.

It's also difficult for someone who isn't familiar with it to use it as an extra button has to be pressed just before closing it to (finally) say "do what I've set up on the switches". This is basically necessary to cope with the case where someone opens the dishwasher while it's running (or in the delay period before running) to allow then to hit a button which means "carry on what you were set up to do" before closing it again. Anyone who doesn't know about this will simply wait forever with the dishwasher doing nothing - it's happened several times in our household.

[Neil Jones]

So, I pointed out I was being pedantic.

If you try to break it I'm sure you could. But that's not the same as "a heavy door, even if perfectly counterbalanced, will still bang against its endstops harder than a light one will."

lightest

Yes, that might be the case - I haven't looked at enough hinges to say. But if I were the manufacturer of a range of appliances I doubt I'd put the same hinge on all my doors.

I suppose it comes down to whether it's cheaper to always use the same hinge (from an inventory point of view) than to purchase heavier duty hinges when lighter ones would have done the job.

I have an AEG integrated dishwasher and it specifies a maximum of 10kg for the door panel. It's incredibly quiet so I can barely tell whether it's on, even when standing next to it, but do I really need to know?

[Christian McArdle]

Mine you just close it again. No need to hit a "carry on" button. To check the display, simply open it a crack and close it. It is also good for sticking an extra bit of cutlery in if the programme has already started. The pump stops when the door is open and starts again when closed. There is no start button.

Christian.

[usenet]

Er, yes, for a couple of reasons:- You want to know if it's finished the wash, on an integrated dishwasher you can't tell.

Someone else needs to know if they can put some dishes into the dishwasher, how do they tell what stage it's at?

[usenet]

So how do you stop it? On ours the program stays at the default program and you hit the "Carry on/start" button before closing the door to get it to wash. If you open the door it stops and stays stopped unless you hit the "Carry on" button before closing the door.

Without the "Carry on" button you'd have to do something else to select a program or say "start" before closing the door, otherwise it would start every time you closed the door wouldn't it?

[Neil Jones]

Well, these are reasons *you* want to know whether it's on or not - not reasons that *I* want to know :-)

If I put my dishwasher on in late in the evening (usually the case) it will have finished by the next morning when I will unload it and start to refill. If I put it on in the early evening it makes a noise to tell me when it's finished.

If someone else has put the machine on and I don't notice and so I try to open it, the lock needs extra force to open compared with when the machine is off or finished. If I just yank it open anyway (and a couple of visitors have done this) they will realise their mistake and close it up again. They didn't get soaking wet, the dishes still came out clean.

If you really *need* to know what stage it has got to you might need to hack into the circuitry to power a couple of neons for an outboard display, or maybe you could add a simple 'meter' to the dishwasher's supply to indicate when the machine is drawing power.

Neil

[PJ]

Having had experience of fitting a B&Q kitchen for a friend I wouldn't recommend them at all. They offer poor service and a poor product. Cheap and nasty would be my description.