A few pennies here and there...

[Andy Hall]

Are you sure, Mary?

I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year.

I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies - especially not at zero interest.

I therefore have two simple rules

1) I don't allow them to set the direct debit amount or to change it. There are a few who will do so as a matter of course. I won't do business with them.

2) I calculate the next year's usage as being the same as the past year's usage, apply any price increases and work out a projected cost. I then offer them no more than 85% of that spread over the year, thus pretty much guaranteeing that I owe them money at the end of the year. Finally, I carry forward the shortfall into the next year and factor that into the cost and offer no more than 85% again.

I sometimes get squeaks from them and they have to go and get approval from the supervisor. A couple of times I've had to discuss with the supervisor. However, they are often on bonuses or targets for customer retention. I only once met with a refusal to co-operate, and that company lost the business.

[Mary Fisher]

Of course I'm not SURE. I said that I believed that. Nobody can be sure- not even you.

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

You have the choice.

That means that you're not paying what you owe. That's no fairer than paying more.

I have never had that problem. But I suspect that my attitude isn't the same as yours.

[Owain]

Yes, if it means the difference between paying for more kWh now at the cheaper rate or paying later for more at a higher rate.

Owain

[Andy Hall]

These were each over a period of a couple of years, so there was a pattern.

I pay what I owe, it's simply a little later than the normal billing period. If they paid me interest on overpayments at the end of the year, then I would have no problem in overpaying them early. Unfortunately they don't.

Well.... if I hadn't found this overpayment practice happening consistently, I wouldn't have bothered to make an issue of it. However, the amounts were quite large and no offer of interest on the amounts was made. Therefore, I think that it's perfectly reasonable in a subsequent year to underpay them for a period in order to recover the lost interest. Taken over a period of a couple of years it works out evens.

[Mary Fisher]

I meant your record with the suppliers:-)

...

Perhaps the companies work on the same basis!

Mary

>

[Andy Hall]

Oh well...... I don't really care about that. They seem to be avaricious for my business. :-)

I suspect that they do.

Another thing is that usually place estimated readings on the high side. Of course one can send them a reading - on my Powergen account I can do so on line, for example. However, if I forget or am too busy, and I am sure a lot of people are, then the charges go through. I am sure that a lot of people on quarterly payments just pay up on the basis of these.

[Dave Fawthrop]

|I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the |tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year. | |I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies - |especially not at zero interest.

I was once long ago, sort of, associated with an easy pay system run by the then nationalised Electricity outfit. "Pay however much we tell you per month and whatever you use we will only charge you that amount" I did some sums on the bills, and found that they were paying a quarter in

**ADVANCE**. So you in effect lent them over 1/4 of the yearly bill at zero interest.

[Peter Lynch]

You may well be losing money by doing this, especially with the recent large increases in energy costs, here's why.

If you pay just what you are (rightfully) billed for the energy you have used, you will start paying for more expensive energy right away. I have just got my latest bill and the supplier has applied the rate increase pro-rata, as it took effect part way through my billing period. However, if you had over-estimated your usage in the past, you'd be "in credit" and would therefore have paid for more energy at the _lower_ rate than you had actually used at this rate (and therefore paid for less at the higher rate).

Obviously this method, which is similar to "buying futures" in energy, only works if energy prices are rising. If they are falling you should endeavour to under-estimate your usage.

HTH

Pete

[Guy King]

The message from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I don't complain, but I certainly phone them to correct it. Saves nasty surprises later.

[Guy King]

The message from Dave Fawthrop contains these words:

Nobody ever said they were stupid!

[Mary Fisher]

But your wanting to penalise the supplier to save paying abit of interest means that other consumers are subsidising you.

[Mary Fisher]

Well, we don't get surprises because we pay by DD and any annual adjustments are made later. Sometimes it's in our favour, sometimes not.

I'm essentially idle, my life's too important to spend time on calculations and petty savings.

I read today that most people don't spend more than 30 minutes preparing their evening meal. The time saved is spent watching TV cooks (and other programmes of course), it seems ... I was very amused by that.

I prefer not to live life vicariously - in all aspects.

[Andy Hall]

That becomes a circular argument, though. I could argue that if everybody handled the supplier in this way, that this would not happen. It might cause the supplier to address the issue and operate in a more honest way rather than expecting customers to subsidise his cash flow.

[Andy Hall]

I follow your point, of course. However, it appears that the energy companies apply overpayment as a *cash* amount, not as a *usage* amount and that therefore the ongoing payment is applied to a higher later rate.

I've also been looking at futures based tariffs and they are also set well ahead of market projections for wholesale energy price rises.

I did some fairly basic calculations and worked out that I would be much better off simply investing the difference between the projections for floating tariffs and the "futures" based ones.

In other words, I can do a better investment job myself than if I give the energy suppliers the job of investing in futures and making a margin on that as well.

Like any other investment, it depends on how risk averse one is. I prefer to have a spread of investments with differing degrees of risk/return. Buying futures through energy companies does not appear to fit very well for me at all.

OTOH, for others, investing in government bonds and forward buying energy may appear attractive.

[Guy King]

The message from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

Oooh, it takes me a whole minute and a half to read the meter, phone the number and enter the reading on the keypad and hang up again.

[Andy Hall]

I completely agree. I spend about 15 mins on this twice a year and make a supplier change if there is a substantial saving to be made. Typically, given a certain pattern of use which doesn't vary, there is not much point once one has found a well matched tariff.

I found yesterday that theoretically I could save about £20 a year by switching from Powergen to NPower. However, from past experience, Npower has inept customer service and regularly made errors of reporting and calculation, so are not worth the maintenance overhead.

It is another reason for paying short of their request - gives me a better negotiating position in the event of errors and poor customer service.

Given the packaged rubbish that supermarkets sell, I am surprised that most manage this long.

Where did the vicar come into this?

[Mary Fisher]

Tell andy that, he's the one who seems to spend his life *calculating* the petty savings. I didn't talk about reading the meter- I have done it in the past - as I've said before. I just haven't worked out what it would 'save' me if I did or didn't report the difference between an estimated reading and the actual one.

>

[Mary Fisher]

You've spent a lot longer than that telling us about it :-)>

Spend as much time looking in a dictionary as you do on your calculations and venting against 'jobsworths' and you'll find out - and increase your word power.

[Andy Hall]

True, but it's all part of life's rich tapestry.

There's very little calculation time. However, the crusade against jobsworths is a divine mission.....

[Mary Fisher]

No, Andy, you're not divine. Come down to Earth.