Wiring second kitchen

[cln]

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at $2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself. Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)

1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker. 1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI). Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run a 115v 11 amp Mixer. I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3 wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys labour. Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting; We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

[N8N]

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,

20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

[RBM]

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way you like.

How many

And what wire am I going to use

[RBM]

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,

20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker, but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles

[N8N]

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a

240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate 12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen, which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

[RBM]

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a

240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate 12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen, which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

Personally, I prefer to use GFCI receptacles at every counter top location, to keep any fault problems localized, they're certainly cheap enough these days. But if you wanted to do it with just 2, you run the circuit to a large junction box, install one GFCI there, with 2- 12/2 tails out to the next locations. One tail off the load of that GFCI and one sharing the neutral and the second circuit, which you run into another box, where you locate the second GFCI, with a 12/2 tail out, off of it's load

[cln]

Thanks RBM & N8N

After talking to the guys at the store, THIS makes more sense than what they led me to believe.

I got enough to go by now! Of course, I might be back...

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit. Which I would not recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x

12/2). Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.

[cln]

Makes sense, thanks

[RBM]

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way of doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no "potential problems"

[chaniarts]

you might run your plans by whoever you get to do the rest of the electrical before you sign a contract with them. some won't want to touch stuff done by you, some will, some will want to specify what you do so that it's acceptable to them....

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about the doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to switch around cables in the breaker panel to make room for another circuit, and ends up putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots on the same side of the service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...

[RBM]

There is never going to be a failsafe against stupidity. The Nec now requires a double pole breaker on Edison circuits, which is intended to prevent miswires. In this case, the OP is having it done by a professional, so as long as he's not planning to screw with the wiring, there shouldn't be an issue.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/20/2011 3:20 PM RBM spake thus:

Well, yes, a double-pole breaker, *clearly marked*, would be just the ticket.

By the way, I agree--*strongly*--with whoever said that the O.P. ought to clear all this with the prospective electrician first.

[zek]

My thoughts, not an electrician. The refrigerator should have it's own circuit, max two on that line. Igo with separate line for microwave. It takes enough power to have it's own line and is also a safety and noise issue. High current devices should have their own ckt. That's three so far, and I would split remaining outlets on two more ckts. Some of today's ovens don't need 30 amp cots, and 20 amp 220v dual breaker is typically enough, but check oven. I count 6 circuits. Separate GFI outlets.

Greg

[Metspitzer]

Kitchen appliances use lots of power. I would consider putting each outlet on a separate circuit. At least every other outlet should be on a separate circuit.

The mixer alone is 1400 watts You could not use anything over 1000 watts at the same time on that circuit without tripping the breaker. Two 1100 watt appliances at the same time on any circuit will be close to tripping the breaker.

web site was the first hit. It shows how much power some common kitchen appliances use.

[Metspitzer]

GFCIs won't work on a split neutral.

[zek]

I have a simple small kitchen, but added some circuits since I moved in. I can run my two microwaves, one is a combo turbo/microwave at the same time along with another turbo oven, and even another one, I plug in. I frequently have two microwaves running along with the separate turbo, all at the same time, not counting the gas oven and gas burners.

Ironic, my little panasonic microwave is the most powerful at

1200watts out. I think it draws 14-15 amps.

A turbo oven is an oven with fan created currents, while all oven create convection regardless of fan.

Greg

[RBM]

** Don't know what you're calling a split neutral, but they work fine on Edison circuits

[David Nebenzahl]

On 4/20/2011 3:58 PM RBM spake thus:

I think he meant to type "shared neutral", and I see no reason why they wouldn't work with one either.

I still wouldn't do it, though; what's the point? to show off how clever an electrician you are?

Oh, yeah, to save a couple buck's worth of cable ...