Who can install a chimney liner?

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And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going into the humidifier, more of the heat from the furnace will go into heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier. There is no free lunch. The heat has to come from somewhere, either the water heater or the furnace.

No you don't.

It has nothing to do with a lower thermostat setting. It has to do with the fact that to get water to evaporate in a humdidifier, energy has to come from somewhere. Either it all comes from the furnace with cold water, or if you use the water heater to heat the water first, part of it comes from the water heater.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Give it up. Such is the tragedy of a government school.
Sad, really.
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:28:53 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You are so like a typical EE. Love to argue. Love to split hairs. What you are talking about is miniscule, not even worth the mention. I will however tell you that running hot water for the humidifier makes the water heater cycle on. Running my furnace for 10 more seconds because of that cold water I use isnt going to change my bill. Yours will. Would you like to do another experiment on that one? Bubba

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Cool and your excuse for arguing is?

Then why did you mention it? You're the one that claimed using hot water from the water heater for the humidifier made a difference by using more energy. I only pointed out that the water gets heated one way or the other anyway, so it doesn't matter. Either by the water heater or by the furnace, so energy wise, it's not worth the mention.

You do the experiment. Go look at your gas meter and see if it the little wheels turn for the last 10 seconds the furnace is on. I'm betting that they do, which means that your bill is changing. But then, in the strange universe you apparently live in, with it's own laws of physics, who knows?
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:15:17 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Why? Because you seem to be having a bit of trouble grasping the concept of reality.

Because it DOES matter you dolt. Its not at all to this extreme but I'll see if you can grasp this concept. You want to heat two ounces of water in a cup. You zap it with a mini torch like one used to solder pipes. 30 seconds later, the water is warm. How much did that cost in fuel? Again, nothing worth mentioning. Now, take that same cup and put it behind the jet engine of a 747 and run it for 30 seconds. Care to take a guess at what that just cost you? Certain things can be done different ways with different results. Even an uncertified crazy EE could seem to figure that out.

Ok, my meter spins for 10 more seconds. What does your gas or electric water heater do when it comes on? Have you ever seen it run for only 10 seconds then shut off? Really,.......do you even have a clue how your furnace or water heater works? Just remember trader........ Click your ruby red slippers together and repeat "There's no place like home". With any luck, you just might get there. Bubba
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Gee, can't you make up your mind? First YOU're the one who first brought this up. Then a couple posts later, you say it's not worth mentioning. Now, you're back to saying it does matter.

You picked the arbitrary time of 10 extra seconds of furnace burner run time if you use cold water in the humidifier and then said it will not effect your gas bill. It does. Even an extra 10 seconds of furnace run time each cycle adds up and will show up in your bill. If the furnace comes on only once an hour, that equates to 2 hours of extra burner time a month. So, once again, you live in a very strange universe where that usage would not show up in your gas bill or else and more likely, you can't do basic math before making silly claims.
And then you try to cloud the whole thing by pointing to the fact that when a water heater comes on, it will stay on for long enough to bring the tank back up to temperature. So what? That's how they operate. It says zippo about the efficiency of the water heater compared to the furnace.
Finally, a gas water heater and a gas furnace are fairly close in efficiency. That is not the case with your conjurred up example of heating a cup of water with either a mini-torch or a jet engine. In that case, of course there would be a huge difference, which I would expect to be at least a couple orders of magnitude. That is not the case in comparing a gas water heater and a gas furnace in a home, which are going to be in the same ballpark.
So, whether using cold water in a humidifier results in the furnace burner staying on 10 secs longer compared to using hot water is about right or not, I don't know and neither do you. But the heat put into the water by the water heater does not disappear. That heat goes into the humidiifer, into the furnace, into the air, and into the house. So, at the end of the day, whether you use hot water or cold in the humidifier is going to have a negligible effect on your energy usage. I'd say the effect is so small that it's not worth mentioning. Hmm, that is what YOU said a few posts back too.
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

and during that 2hrs each month how much more do you thing that water heater is going to crank on? A lot more that that furnace does for just the sole purpose of adding moisture to a home. Its amazing how you cant seem to get a grip on the simplest of things. Always trying to analyze something down to a knat ass for some unknown reason.

Wrong. In case you havent noticed, if a water heater is satisfied, it will usually stay off all day when homeowners are at work. Thats how well they hold their heat. Now go and draw some water from it, even a small amount and it comes back on until the temp is satisfied again. When a furnace is maintaining the temp in the home its already running. Why waste the energy of the water heater when the furnace will do it. Even with the few extra seconds it will run to give the house some moisture?

Ahh, at least you finally caught on to an example, HOWEVER, you are incorrect in the case of the furnace/water heater efficiencys being close. Most furnaces now are 95% efficient and condense flue gasses into water vapor. Most water heaters (gas) still use a metal vent chimney that stays open 24/7 thus is quite different in efficiency. (although that clown ransley will spew all kind of silly shit like if he has a clue about it) Im suprised a pencil pusher like yourself doesnt know these things. I see them everyday. Thats what I do.

Well, you're getting close now. I agree, the heat from the hot water into the humidifier and into the home benefits you but it is so little yet it requires quite a bit of energy compared to the furnace as you are cycling a water heater that doesnt need to be cycled. Some things are much more efficient to use and in this case the furnace is and the water heater isnt. Look at flashlights. It used to be that 2 Duracell alkaline batteries in a krypton gave off much light but the battery life sucked. Use those same batteries now with the LED flashlights. Very impressive battery life and light that is as good and better. A much more efficient way to put batteries to use. Any chance in hell this is even remotely sinking in now trader? Nah, I didnt think so. Bubba
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It's going to use about the same amount of energy to heat the water whether it's done in the water heater or the gas furnace. They are in the same ball park regarding energy efficiency. At least you finally seem to agree that a furnace running an extra 10 secs each cycle does show up in your gas bill.

So, says you, in your world of strange physics. Perhaps you can explain why putting energy into water in a water heater is drastically different than the energy going in via the gas furnace.

It's amazing how so much of what you know to be true is just plain wrong.

Sure, which is further testimonial to the fact that they are in fact efficient at heating water. I know that. You're the one claiming that there is a huge energy inefficiency in heating water via a water heater.

Depends on what you call a small amount. It comes on when the temp has dropped enough to make it go on. That could be many gallons of water, depending on when the water heater last shut off and the incoming water temp. But again, so what? First you say that water heaters are so well insulated, they can go all day without coming on. Then, you claim if a few gallons of water causes the water heater to cycle on, that somehow it's hugely inefficient. Once the tank is brought up to temp, what do you think happens? The heat is just instantly lost? More strange physics?

One more time. With cold water, the furnace is providing all the heat to evaporate the water. So, the furnace will burn more gas before it raises the house temp and turns off. The amount of extra gas it will burn is roughly the amount of gas the water heater would burn if you used hot water going into the humidifier instead of cold. In other words, there is no free lunch, energy doesn't magically appear or disappear. The energy absorbed heating the water in the water heater is transferred into the air in the furnace. Capiche?

Once again, mixing apples and oranges. First, most furnaces currently installed in the US today are not 95% efficient. Here in new construction in NJ you typically don't see above 93%. So, how could the installed base of furnaces be 95%? More importantly, if you want to compare a high efficiency gas furnace, then compare it to a high efficiency gas water heater. You must not get out much, because they don't have a flue that stays open 24/7. Likewise, if you want to compare an old 80% efficient gas furnace, then compare it to a typical old gas waer heater. Compared correctly, they are in the same ballpark in efficiency. Not like your silly example of heating a cup of water with either a torch or a jet engine.

Thank God you aren't doing what you do anywhere near me.
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:02:41 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Thank God there arent too many idiots like you. You are dumb beyond belief. Have fun in your world of make-believe. Im done explaining. Nothing could get through that cement head of yours. Burn all the energy you want. Your hopeless. Too bad. Bubba
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Bubba wrote:

Has somewhat better heat capacity curve for water than when I last chimed in but it tells the point that using hot water is nothing compared to energy to evaporate water:
http://www.av8n.com/physics/phase-transition-heat.htm
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That curve is showing the energy it takes to change water into steam. For water to evaporate, it does not have to boil, or even come close to boiling. Evaporation occurs as SOME of the water molecules near the surface of a liquid that have slightly more energy manage to break away from the surface tension of the water and escape into the air. Hence, it is directly driven by the temperature of the liquid. Take a cup of room temp water outside on a cold day and you see nothing. Even though some of it is evaporating, it's not enough to see. Take a cup of 130 deg water outside and you see vapor escaping, even though the water is nowhere near 212. Surely that simple experiment is enough to show that the difference between hot and cold water does make a substantial difference in the rate of evaporation. Capiche?
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Aaron Fude wrote:

Depends on what kind of liner it is. There is the ceramic liner that is cemented to the inside of the chimney. The new ones are just an insulated pipe they stick down the chimney and connect directly to the appliance. They usually have a metal cap vent sticking out of the top of the chimney. That may be the price difference.
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*Those pesky contractors. We all know that it only takes ten minutes on TV to install that stuff yet they still try and nail us with wages someone could live on and their stupid overhead and cost of doing business. They should take into consideration that there will be no warranty since you will be furnishing the material.
There was another thread here about a kid who worked for $5.00 per hour. See if you can get a hold of him. Another thought is to go to the street corner in your town where the "Day laborers" hang out and pick up a few to do the job.
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