Both sides are. Not you.
Some athiest I come across believe more fervently in
God than I do. The difference is that they hate him and I
I have come across the same thing Mayayana speaks of.
Mainly from Left Wing athiests. (Liberalism is actually
a religoun: tells you what to think, what you can eat,
who to be nice and mean to, what you can wear, what
to listen to, and on and on. More strident than any
other religoun I have come across.)
As you said, if you really don't believe, then it
doesn't matter and no need to flame anyone. And
no need to hate God.
Speaking of pushing 60, I am debating whether or not to
become a "toothless old fart" or a "Curmudgeon".
Still working on that cane shaking thing: "Ki-ki-ki-kids
these days!" Now was that two shakes or three?
Got the toothless part down pretty good so far. But,
Curmudgeon sounds more fun.
Still having too much fun (trout fear me!).
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
If the investigator prays to know if the
message is true, and the investigator gets
the yes answer, then it's possible. I like
to think that all churches have some
portion of truth. When Jews accept Christ
as saviour, that's adopting more truth.
When Bible readers accept the Book of Mormon
and join LDS, that's even more truth. A lot
of people leave other churches and join LDS.
One of these days, I've got to write about how
all churches have part of the truth, and how
a lot of people leave other churches and join
LDS church. Right after I find what I did with
my breakfast. It was right here, under these
I'll agree with Mayayana on that. Don't tell him I said this, but one
of the exceptions that Mayayana may be referring to is a fella that
posts under different aliases, but mostly goes by the name "HomeGuy".
You may find him hard to get along with because he seems to enjoy
denegrating America and all things American. From what I've been able
to gather, he feels his justification for doing so is that in 2008 the
US Housing Mortgage crisis almost destabilized the world's banking
system and sent a lot of national economies into a defensive mode
whereby they stopped trading in US mortgage-backed securities with other
national economies for fear their economy would be damaged too.
Personally, I think this is very unreasonable of him because no one in
this forum had anything to do with that mortgage fiasco, and if
anything, the Americans in here suffered as much if not more than he did
because of their property values plummeting as a result of the glut of
empty houses that flooded the real estate market at the time as a result
of people not being able to meet their mortgage payments. It would be
like the Americans in here blaming me (another Canadian) for the fact
that Justin Bieber was speeding through the streets and avenues of
Hollywood in a rented Lamborghini. If it was up to me, I'd take that
toy away from him, but it isn't up to me. Similarily, it wasn't up to
any of the Americans in here to sell teaser mortgages to people that
couldn't remember if they had a job, and if so, where they worked. And,
that was pretty well what caused that mortgage fiasco; the US selling US
mortgage backed securities world wide when they knew that the mortgages
weren't worth the paper they were printed on. Still, the Americans in
here were as much victims as anyone else in that regard.
You can usually tell HomeGuy's posts because they start off citing
something some American did somewhere which is deplorable in one respect
or another, and he then claims that such behaviour is typical of what to
expect from Americans in general. For example, if some Yank chops the
head off a rooster and leaves it's carcass in the street to rot, then
it's the Americans IN HERE that he holds accountable.
But, don't tell HomeGuy I said that. We'll just keep it between
You want answers? That's who to ask. Not the little twenty-something
geeks who live in Mom's basement, have their nose plastered to a game
box, and whose hearing is gone from wearing ear buds at max volume.
They can fix nothing. They just buy another, or better yet, let Mommy
buy it for them. They are sitting home after a six year bender called
college, where they came away with a degree in ancient Greek pottery,
and are waiting for an answer to the two resumes they sent out asking
for $80,000 starting pay with benefits and retirement.
They can't weld, they can't tell you the wrench size between 1/2 and 5/8
inches, and don't know a #2 from a #3 Phillips screwdriver. Lucky for
AAA or we'd have many thousands of deaths each winter from their ilk
freezing to death after sitting in an idling car until the gas ran out
wondering what to do about a flat tire.
Talk about pitiful? And you are definitely are entertaining, too.
Getting several twenties out of your pocket for a repair job that took
me less than fifteen minutes actual work time. Or thousands for a
simple sheetrock or tile job.
Now, go check, and make sure you closed the basement door, and be sure
to remember where Mom hid the secret key for you in case you get locked out.
| > > Seems silly to me, a fruitless endeavour that has
| > > virtually zero chance of success (success being
| > > changing someone's mind) because those of opposite view
| > > are operating on faith.
| > If the investigator prays to know if the
| > message is true, and the investigator gets
| > the yes answer, then it's possible. I like
| > to think that all churches have some
| > portion of truth. When Jews accept Christ
| > as saviour, that's adopting more truth.
| > When Bible readers accept the Book of Mormon
| > and join LDS, that's even more truth. A lot
| > of people leave other churches and join LDS.
| Substitute "faith" for "truth" and I could agree, more or less.
Those seem like pretty rubbery terms to me. Stormin
Mormon has not defined truth. You've not defined faith.
I know the Mormons are very big on evangelism and on
absolute belief in relative "facts", which have always
seemed to me like the most dependable indicators
of a lack of faith. :) In other words, if one needs to have
cornered the market on some kind of absolute truth, or needs
to sell their system to others, that's indicative of lack of
confidence. It also indicates people who *need* for their
religion to be a solution to their hopes and/or fears, rather
than a practice.
Stormin Mormon seems to be implying that there's an
absolute truth, and an absolute, single creator entity,
and that the Mormon's hold some sort of exclusive license
to those. (Though he's generously granting a partial sub-
license to Jews and Christians. :)
You seem to be defining faith as simple blind belief. I
think that's the way most non-religious people view faith.
Maybe it's also Stormin Mormon's definition. But that's a
definition tainted by scientific thinking. The scientist wants
to reduce the discussion to something objectively measurable:
God must be a distinct, living entity like ourselves, because
that's the only version science can cope with. That entity,
then, must either exist concretely or not, because that's
the only way that science can understand it and test for it.
If we can't find any scientific evidence of the existence (like
seeing a 3 mile long beard through our telescopes) then the
God entity must be an expression of blind belief. What can't be
contained within the narrow purview of science is by definition
Science can't know what it can't know. It makes a
host of assumptions about the nature of reality that
it can't see by definition. Science can never find God
because it's looking for science's version of God. Science
can never know faith aside from simple belief because it
can't come up with "objective" tests for it. The same problem
holds with the field of psychology, which tries to shoehorn
mind into scientific method. But how do we objectively
observe mind? How do we know it's merely a physical process?
Psychologists catalog symptoms and brain scans, and they
hand out happy pills. What else can they do within the confines
of science? Should people be happy? What is mind? What's
the meaning of life? Ask those questions to a psychologist or
scientist and you get the kind of absurd nonsense that the
sociobiologists use as a fig leaf over their ignorance and
limited tools: They say life is DNA's way to reproduce itself. :)
In my experience, whether people follow a theistic religion
or not, faith (as opposed to blind faith) is about the confidence
of experience, not belief. It's not about blind belief in God
as a giant man in the sky. It's about experience of
God. A simple example: I used to live next door to an elderly
Catholic couple. They had little shrines in every corner of
their house. Objectively I'd have to say they were pantheists
and followers of the fading embers of the Roman Empire. But
they also seemed to have true faith that they had got from
the Catholic teachings. They had an intuitive, experiential
confidence that the tenets of their religion represent basic
truths. That confidence inspired them to try to act according
to Christian ideals, with kindness toward others and moral
discipline toward themselves. Whether or not they believed in
Heaven as some sort of eternal Club Med, they had confidence
that their efforts were worthwhile. And I think they'd probably
say that was a self-evident truth. A scientist can only hand
those people a survey: Do you believe in God? Do you consider
yourself to be a Catholic? None of what the scientist can discover
even touches on what their faith means to that elderly couple.
I remember as a nominally Christian child I was told that God
was in the sugar bowl, and everywhere else. I wrestled with
that. How can he be everywhere? I think of that now as a
kind of koan. It's not a definition of God. It's a reflection practice;
a contemplation meant to get beyond limiting ways of looking
at reality. Someone who says God is in the sugarbowl surely
sees God as something a bit more interesting than a giant
man living in the sky who has the power to help you win the
My father was Mormon and his side of the family is
very devote. I do have a lot of respect for them.
Their family values are to be envied, among
On 05/16/2014 07:56 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Maybe we are seeing a crack in Stormin' belief system, as
this is not Mormon teaching. We "Gentiles", as they call
us, is all going to hell. And especially those like
myself that loudly proclaim the Jesus of the Christians.
I do believe his revealing angle referred to us and me
specifically as "abominations".
One of the not so admirable things I remember as a child
was my grandfather bouncing my sister up and down on his
knee (they liked that kind of stuff) and telling her she
was going to hell because she was not a Mormon. Grandmother
has the grace to be embarrassed. My sister was traumatized
for years, not to mention pretty pissed.
I love it!
Science and religion don't mix. As an Orthodox
Christian, I am required to believe that God created
the Heavens and the Earth and all things seen and unseen.
And I so very much do.
Now, "how" God created the universe, is up to him. And
"how" is not a tenant of faith. I can study, speculate
as to "how" as much as I want, but still not a tenant
And the "truth" in science is a moving target. As
an Orthodox saint once said: seek not the truth in
science, as today's truths are always tomorrows
falsehoods. (Don't believe me, look up "Caloric".)
And science has its place. As stated in the Bible:
And he hath given men skill, that he might be
honoured in his marvellous works.
--Wisdom of Sirach (Apocrypha), chapter 38, v6:
Wonderful explanation. Thank you!
In the end, I do believe that religions completing with
each other in this way will be the ultimate salvation
of humanity. As the Jesus of the Christians teaches,
What so ever you do unto the least of you, you do
unto me. By being decent to others (ALL OTHERS, not just
your own kind!), you are touching the face of God.
And, no cutting other's heads off! (That is a good
way to really, really good was to piss off the Lord.)
I think one of the things you missed in your wonderful
exposition (are you a professional writer?) was that
to me, and I presume other Christians, our faith is
not a blind theoretical abstract. It is a living and
defining part of me/us. I have a personal relationship
with Jesus. A Saint actually sought me out (made me really
work at it to figure out was was going on too).
As far as Stormin' goes. He is obviously a nice guy
and routinely touches the face of the single and only
God, even if the God he is touching is not the one
Stormin' thinks it is. (Mormon's believe in multiple Gods
and that you can become one yourself. Christians are
This is why when I tease him about smacking him over the
head with a newspaper in heaven, I am careful to include
him in heaven with me. (I think he is a little to big
to bounce up and down on me knee and tell him he is going
to heaven.) He is not an "Abomination" the the eyes
of the Christian God.
And yes, I have voices in my head (usually to scold me),
which is why Left Wing Atheists think I should not be
allow to vote. (Mainly because I don't vote for their
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
Ask on of those guys with the skinny ties. My
grandfather has passed, or I let him tell you.
See Moroni's quote below.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for
they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed
me said that all their creeds were an abomination in
his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;
that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but
their hearts are far from me, they teach for
doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of
godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
By the way, why the rest of us is all going to hell,
including and especially me. (I am quaking in my
Oh now I have to go wash my mouth out with soap. Just
teasing. Was that Dove or Ivory?
There are a lot of nice Mormons out there and Mormons
have a lot to be admired. I think you are were the
Lord wants you to be.
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
That is exactly were I and all other "abominations" are
Actually, no. My sister is/was a professed Christian.
She choose Christianity over Mormonism, just like me.
And that makes both her and me both an "abomination".
Christians only have a heaven and a hell. R. Catholics
had a Purgatory and a Limbo for a while, but I do not
believe they follow it anymore. (It was something
they added to the religion and is not original teaching
of the church. R. Catholics can be "deviationists" at
times, but they are still my bothers in Christ.)
Folks who God knows, will be with him. No half way.
(I except to get a good hosing off. Talk about the supreme
And no structures or families in heaven: this is
Jesus own words. Mormon teaching contradicts
He already knows you, even if you don't know him.
I hope to have many of a pleasant conversation with
you in Heaven. You will probably get tired
of me smacking you over the head with a rolled up
When you get tired of all your professing Christian
friends going to hell, there are a lot of Christians
around would would love to tell you about the faith.
Probably won't be able to get them to shut up!
But I think the Lord does have a purpose for you
where you are.
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
Yes. I hate things like $9.95 or $359,500. It also makes people wonder...
I had a friend who also set odd appointment times - 9:13, 2:52 etc. -
because people remembered them and showed up on time. Generally.
For me, "faith" is a belief in something one has not observed or
experienced. Now, all of us - most of us - have faith in something. Not
surprising since no one is likely to have observed or experienced
EVERYthing; for example, I have faith in the existence of sub-atomic
particles in their various persuasions even though I have no first hand
experience with most of them. However, when faith deals with religion, my
faith leaves...my experiences and observations do not support second or
greater hand stories - many/most of them years/decades/centuries after the
fact - nor the highly likely misinterpretations or mistranslations.
It was not always so. I grew up going to Sunday school, even church on
occasion. I swallowed the little wafer and drank the grape juice (I liked
the grape juice, the wafers need some salt!). At the time (early 40s) there
was also an option available to parents for their offspring to attend church
school once a week for a half day - or maybe a couple of hours, don't
recall - instead of public school. My parents exercised that option so I
was well indoctrinated. I believed.
More properly, I accepted...I accepted what I was taught. I did so because
those doing the teaching were older, wiser and more experienced than I was;
I respected them. Of course, they were the same folks that were swearing
that Santa Claus was real.
During this period we lived next to a parsonage, I forget the denomination,
and like most little kids chatted with neighbors from time to time. The
parson created the first chink in my belief armor when he advised me that
animals could not go to heaven because they lacked a soul. I thought that
was unfair then and were I a believer now I still would.
In my mid-teens I developed an interest in religion and read everything I
could find about the various and their origins. Each professed to be the
true religion, each was very much like the others. I also thought about
what I had been taught compared to what I had read and (minimally, at that
time) observed. Common sense kicked in and I embraced atheism. Actually, I
embraced agnosticism for a couple of years, mainly to avoid death by stoning
I have no quarrel with believers. Life is not always easy and anything that
helps people over the rough spots is fine with me; however, I do think that
the vast majority have never THOUGHT about what they have been taught...they
have never asked themselves whether this or that aspect actually makes sense
Agreed. For many, it is a bail out clause...betting on the come :)
My elder brother - he'll be 89 in a couple of weeks - converted to
catholicism a couple of years ago. I never knew him to be religious and
that's what I think he is doing...betting on the come...hedging his bets for
when he is no more. Fine with me.
Need the license be renewed frm time to time? :)
I used to enjoy reading/thinking about cosmology. I no longer do, it fries
my brain...I cannot conceive of an infinite universe nor can I conceive of a
finite one; I have trouble getting my head around a big bang too...my head
won't handle everything condensed into something itsy-bitsy of infinite mass
then going BOOM and expanding to god - you should excuse the phrase - knows
where. I'm assuming that space was also condensed so into what was
I'm glad you asked that because I have the answer: there is none.
I once lived somewhere, don't recall where, where the personals in the daily
newspaper frequently contained ads thanking Saint So-and-so for "favors
granted". Really? Something the person wanted and prayed for actually came
true? Because of the blessed saint's intervention? And the saint is a
newpaper subscriber and sees the ad thanking him/her? OK...
PS - I enjoyed your thesis, you obviously use your head for more than
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