Shingles - 3-tab vs. "architectural"?

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Hello all -
I'm getting ready to have my roof replaced, and have some questions pertaining to shingles.
A roofer/siding guy who looked at things and gave me an estimate mentioned something about "Timberline" or "Timberlane" shingles as what he regularly used. Not sure of the name; I have found a website for Timberline shingles but not for "Timberlane".
I had previously been considering what are commonly called "3-tab" type shingles (I was interested in them because of their "lay-flat" look), but he recommended that I NOT use them, because they have a limited lifespan when compared to other types of shingles.
I _think_ he was referring to what are called "architectural" type shingles. He said they'll last longer and come with a better warranty.
Would anyone comment on the longevity of 3-tab vis-a-vis the "architectural" type shingles? Was he telling me the truth?
I'd also like to ask about shingle COLORS. I'd prefer a charcoal or darker-colored roof, as the houses on either side of me are grey and brown. Just something different.
But I was wondering about shingle color and heat transfer. Will a darj roof "absorb" considerably more heat from the summer sun? Or does it make little difference? If heat IS a factor, I'll choose a lighter color. (Note: my attic has insulation installed underneath the rafters, pretty well-wrapped)
Thanks, - John
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John Albert wrote:

I have these type shingles. My old shingles had a lot of warps and roofer recommended these to remove show through of texture under shingles since he had to cut some off. A complete re-roof, removing old shingles would not have this problem. My "new roof" is about 15 years old and looks great. Shingle warranty is 25 years.
Frank
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John Albert wrote:

It's Timberline.

3-tab shingles are the lowest of the low as far as longevity is concerned. Architectural shingles are rated for longer lifespan, easily. Shingles are now rated according to their expected lifespan instead of the old shingle weight. 3 tabs are typically 20 year (recently upgraded from 15 year) while architectural are 25 to 50 year shingles.

John, if I understand correctly, you have insulation up against the bottom of your sheathing? If that is the case, then I would go with the lightest color you can get. The insulation does not allow air circulation along the bottom of the sheathing. This causes a build up of heat, which drastically shortens the lifespan of shingles. My advice would be to lower the insulation to provide an airgap and make sure you have both soffit and ridge vents (a reroof is a good time to do ridgevents). If that is too much to do, then go with lighter colored shingles, or better; a metal roof.
--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
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Timberline is just a GAF line l like Oakridge is an Owens Corning line.

Yes they are called architectural. They do have and claim a 30 & 50 year line. On the ones I used, the sealing strip ran continuously from one end to the oter on every shingle. This can't be a bad thing especially in higher wind areas.
Architecturals seem to be becoming the norm. More desireable for home sale. Personally, I like the look better.

I have no personal "test of time" info for you. I just did a roof with Oakridge. I don't think I have 30 yrs left to check on them. You need to go look at a regular 3 tab and an architectural at a store. They'll be on display. You'll see the difference.
They hide roof defects better. From the roofers standpoint, they are easier to install because thee are no tabs to space on ends and there is less waste but they are more difficult to cut. Just info, not really your concern.
Just make sure they are AR (algae resistant) rated. Most are. It helps prevent black algae from forming on the horth side of roofs. Especially important if you choose a light color or are in a high humidity area like the south or mid-south.
The things you don't mention is about the rest of the job they will do and you should be asking them - new drip edge, drip edge width, rrof & chimney flashing, WSU (waterproof shingle underlayment) on eaves and vallys, roofing felt, tearoff vs another layer, disposal of old shingles, galvanized nails vs. zinc, cost per underlayment sheet if needed, etc. Some things are climate dependent. All this should be in your written estimate. If it isn't, assume you aren't getting it.

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Red wrote: << The things you don't mention is about the rest of the job they will do and you should be asking them - new drip edge, drip edge width, rrof & chimney flashing, WSU (waterproof shingle underlayment) on eaves and vallys, roofing felt, tearoff vs another layer, disposal of old shingles, galvanized nails vs. zinc, cost per underlayment sheet if needed, etc. Some things are climate dependent. All this should be in your written estimate >>
The guy who looked at things did mention that he'd also reface the chimney and install copper flashing (chimney currently has loose bricks). He said something about an "ice guard" going up perhaps 3 feet from the drip edge. New gutters too (mine are falling apart).
The entire existing roof has to come off, down to the rafters (currently has at least 2 layers of asphalt shingles on top of wood shingles over batten strips).
He also mentioned that he'd install ridge vents (house has none).
This will be on a modest rectangular 2-story, main roof is peaked gable, no dormers. Also a small "bay" (not window) on side, lean-to type of porch on the back, plus the garage roof, which is worse than the house.
This includes taking down a couple of small trees in the way.
His price was $10,450 for everything (including a couple of dumpsters to haul everything away). I had figured at least $8,000 and up to 12.
I haven't called him back yet.
- John
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Not a bad price. Instead of a ridge vent I went for roof vents--2 out of the 3 roofers recommended them instead of the ridge vent. If you're in a snowy winter climate try for a 6 ft. ice guard. MLD
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Think the recommendation I've heard is 2 ft up the roof from where the insulation starts on the outside vertical wall. Typical overhang is a foot so 3 ft (std width) gives you 2ft up.
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On Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:16:38 PM UTC-5, Red Green wrote:

2 ft past heated wall is code now in most areas subject to snow/freezing. But I think a lot of roofers don't get the basic idea and just put one 3 ft pass down the eaves regardless of how long the eaves are. In the case of a front porch, it could be that 12 feet is what's needed to get from the eave to 2 ft past the heated wall.
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John Albert wrote:

If you live in a snow-free area, ridge vents are better than other vents because they pull out more air, partly because the properly designed ones, that is, those with a vertical fin on each side, don't let wind push air into the attic but instead always suck out air, regardless of which way the wind is blowing. The fins also help keep out rain.
www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/ridgeVents.shtml
You also need soffit vents to bring air into the attic, but that's true regardless of the type of roof vents.
Light grey shingles, often labelled "white", absorb about 90% of the sunlight, while any other color, even light tan, absorbs about 99% of it. So roof insulation matters a lot more than roof color.
Consumer Reports reviewed shingles in Aug. 1997 and Aug. 2003 and found that price, length of warranty, architectural vs. 3-tab, brand, and weight had almost no relationship to quality, although many of the top-scoring shingles were by Certainteed. Because of this, we bought the GAF 3-tab Royal Sovereign shingles that were warranted for 25 years and rated about the same or better as GAF architectural Timberline shingles (three types - Ultra, Select 40, and 30)
1997 results for GAF 3-tab Royal Sovereign:
tear resistance: D pull resistance: B stretchability: B nail holding: B wind resistance: A sun resistance: B freeze/thaw: B
2003 results for GAF Timberline Ultra and Timberline 40 architectural:
strength: B wind resistance: C weathering: B impact resistance: D
2003 results for GAF architectural Timberline 30:
strength: C wind resistance: D weathering: B impact resistance: C
Be careful in choosing the roofer because the one we had was so bad that they ended up redoing the roof completely -- a year later, not because the shingles were bad but because of the really sloppy installation and the failure to use the contracted 6 nails/shingle versus the usual 4/shingle..Be sure the company is authorized by the single manufacturer so you'll have warranty coverage even if they go belly-up, and ask if they use temporary crews, i.e., foreign workers, often illegals, or only their own employees. Our roofing company said they used no temporary crews, but the first crew was definitely temporary, and when the roof was finally redone, every worker was a full time employee, probably all supervisory because nobody was younger than 45. Also the leader of the first crew was fired because of the poor initial roofing job.
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On Friday, January 25, 2008 1:16:51 AM UTC-5, larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Agree that color isn't going to make a significant difference. I saw a study done in FL on identical houses with different colors and types of roofs. From white shingles to black shingles in FL in summer, there was something like 10% difference in cooling energy used in the house. But, that was with the house unoccupied. When the houses were occupied, the percentage dropped to just a few percent. Conclusion was it might make a difference of $20 a year in cooling costs. And of course in northern climates, it's safe to assume that in the winter with a darker roof you get some small benefit from a darker roof that would lessen the effect even more.

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" snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" wrote:

Lighter-colored shingles last longer, have lower surface temperature than dark shingles.

Bullshit.
As I've stated before, any heat-transfer that you *hope* exists in the winter to gain attic heat into the house will bite your ass in the summer as that same heat transfer will be an extra load on your AC.
Dark shingles in northern climates can add to the ice-damming effect where snow melts on a dark roof, runs down to the eves where it's colder and freezes, creating water backup under the shingles and huge icicles hanging off gutters.
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On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:47:27 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

Then show us a manufacturer's product line where the length of the warranty is based on the color. And how good do light colored shingles look after 10 or 15 years compared to dark ones. The few light colored roofs around here look like hell in 5 - 10 years because they show dirt far more than dark ones.

Why, just because you say so? If darker shingles make the attic a little hotter, then the effect you have that increases cooling in summer will reduce heating costs in winter.

Oh, so is it or isn't it BS, make up your mind.

Yawn... Dark shingles are by far the most popular color in northern climates, probably 90%+ of the roofs out there. There have been black shingles on my roof for 30 years and no ice dams.
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When my 3-tab blew off I replaced it with Architectural for better wind resistance.
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John Albert wrote:

I would call the guy and make him repeat himself, just to be clear. This "Timberlane" may be some fly-by-night cut-rate shingle manufacturer trying to play off the good name of Timberline. Timberlane, Timberline, same difference, right? NOT NECESSARILY.

I would advise against hiring this roofer. You should not have questions like this if he was doing his job. He should have shown you the difference between the shingles, the available colors.
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snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote in

Maybe a better question is who manufactures it i.e. Owens Corning, GAF, IKO, etc.? I'm sure they all make an econo line as well as a kick-ass line though.

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On Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:30:18 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com wrote:

And even more importantly he should have given the OP a written quote. Only then can you compare one quote to another, see what some guys may be leaving out, etc.
The shingles are probably Timberline. I would definitely go with that type of arch shingle. They are substantially heavier, last longer, have a nicer look and are what is being used today on all the better homes with shingles. The cost of the shingles is about 30% more than a 3-tab. The rest of the materials, labor, etc is the same, so it makes maybe a 10 -15% difference in the overall price.
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John: I sent you a private reply to answer all of your questions thoroughly.
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On Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:33:13 PM UTC-5, John Albert wrote:

i personally would use the 3 tab with a architectural look over any archite ctural shingle because they give the nice architectural look every one is a fter but unlike architectural with is pretty much two shingles compressed t ogether so if installation is done incorrectly the will fall apart when the hotter weather starts to melt the tar strip on them iv been doing roofing for 10 years now and that is what iv learns also having a attic fan over ri dge vent would greatly increase the life span on any shingle and also lower s your cooling bill by 20-30% by truly sucking the hot air out of the attic space
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On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 16:57:36 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I had some brown 20 year warranty 3-tabs installed 30 years ago and they are on their last legs.
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On Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:57:36 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

How do you get an architectural shingle look in a 3-tab? It's the fact that architectural shingles are in part two shingles together that gives them the thickness variation that makes the architectural look.
so if installation is done incorrectly the will fall apart when the hotter weather starts to melt the tar strip on them iv been doing roofing for 10 years now and that is what iv learns
Then you should know that there is nothing about basic architectural shingles, like Timberline, OC TruDef, etc that make them difficult to install. Anyone doubting this can read the simple instruction that come with the product. If you can't line up a shingle and put 4 nails in the nailing locations, you shouldn't be doing roofing. If a roofer can't handle an arch shingle, how is he going to do the harder stuff where you can really screw up a job, eg flashing?
also having a attic fan over ridge vent would greatly increase the life span on any shingle and also lowers your cooling bill by 20-30% by truly sucking the hot air out of the attic space
Which has been disproven many times. Most experts today recommend ridge vents over power fans. And for any choice of ridge vent, fan etc to have a 20 -30% effect on cooling cost, the house would have to have no insulation.
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