Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III

Page 4 of 6  


Pre-hung or not, don't care.
The existing door's wood looks like it's shot. I don't know if it's dry rot or something else but once wood stops being hard and can soak up moisture like a sponge and changes shape, its done.
I know the OP is being stubborn. Good for him, but eventually he's going to have to admit defeat.
--
Dan Espen

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/19/2012 4:21 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ...

Have you fitted tight dowels? If the dowels were shrunken or the holes hogged out as we talked before then sure, there's going to be play there.
The last picture shows what appears to perhaps be significant structural damage to the wood itself that has not been apparent in any previous pictures. If that is in fact the case, then either you have to repair it or otherwise work around it...
As pointed out before, you've got to get back to solid material and tight-fits one way or another--I suggested going larger as it's easiest if the wood is basically solid; at least one other suggested regluing in dowels and redrilling them--that _MIGHT_ work but ime generally all you get is the remnants of the that attempted plug spinning in the hole as that thick of a glue line rarely has enough strength to hold.
If it's not solid right around the holes but is elsewhere, there's where I've on occasion gone to replacing the dowels w/ loose tenons but connecting between adjacent holes to house them.
You just have to be creative and deal with what you have and figure out what will work for the particular case.
As for the coping cuts and cleaning them up -- as noted, it's a combination of many tools and patience. I'm lucky in having a fully equipped shop and can find scrapers or make one to fit virtually any cope--lacking that it's more time consuming. Eventually w/ care you can finally sand lightly to smooth things all out again but be careful to not smear the profiles...
But, if there isn't enough solid wood in the stile and bottom rail then w/o the facility to make a replacement fill-in piece or whole new stile or rail (or both) you have come to an impasse. I can't tell from here of course, but that last picture doesn't look good just from the surface and the missing section...that image never showed up before.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The dowels feel light as a feather. All look badly weathered. Of 10, 7 stayed in the stile (but some may well have shifted), none in rails. They don't really look to be uniform diameter, so I guess they've shrunk.

You speak here of the warp.

I had hoped to be able to at least remove the dowels and evaluate whether to drill and use larger dowels or ?, but when I try to ease a dowel out, it splinters. Many rails show more weathering than the stiles. I'm half afraid of doing much of anything with the dowels for fear of making things worse. A couple have already splintered.

I dunno if that's the way to go, here. Drilling into the rails looks problematical.

Wish me luck!

I haven't mangled any, yet ...

I probably should've noticed it and shot some pics before this, but I hoped the cleanup would help and wanted to try that first. I tried gently bending the dowels a little: nothin' shakin'.
Right now, I'm inclined to just clean up a little more, slam it all back together glued, with pony clamps and a couple hardwood boards clamped on each side of the warp (in the pic). I guess it makes sense to clamp the hardwood boards first, then tighten up the pony clamp across the mid-section.
Or maybe add a sizable plate steel reinforcer over the warp (across stile and kickplate rail) on the inside of door , held with deck screws.
Did you say it might make sense to employ a diagonal pony clamp to pull it into square?
You really think Titebond III would hold if I get it all properly clamped? There will be a lot of pressure on the warp joint. How fast does it set up?
Thanks, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The dowels, like the rest of the door are rotted beyond recovery.
Haven't you dealt with rotted wood before?
Junk the door. It's dead.
--
Dan Espen

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Even if he doesn't junk it, I don't understand the problem with the dowels splintering. If the door is that bad, then you have two choices. Either buy a new door or just tear into the old one, splinters be damned, until you get it apart to where you have sound wood and can see a path to succesfully fixing it. I could do that in an hour.
Of course he's focused on the old door because he claims there is some "problem" with putting hinges on and hanging a new door. And he refuses to consider a pre-hung.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/20/2012 9:56 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: ...

The difficulty w/ a prehung in his app is that the RO is also the finished opening so he'd lose at least 2" in width which is probably not desirable.
I do agree it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement...
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ...

Not unless you have well fitting joints, not for any length of time, no. It (and very little else other than some specialty epoxies) is not intended for filling gaps and has little strength as a material itself--it glues by forming bonds across (very) small distances.
It's what I've told you before about the dowels--if they're not solid and into solid wood then the job is to get back to solid material one way or another and fit what is needed to do so.
You've really given no indication of just how bad the material surrounding them is--if it is just crumbly or rotted completely away, your only real choice is to get back to solid material and fill in w/ new or go to some of the restorative products. At that time, given their cost and that this is not a door of any architectural significance you're best recourse may well be to go to the replacement.
Wish could get hands on feel for just how good/bad it is, but one can judge only so much by photos alone, sorry...
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
dpb wrote:

One doesn't need a specialty epoxy, any will do when thickend with fumed silica (Cab-o-Sil, Aero-Sil), micro balloons, wood dust or any of numerous other things. It bridges gaps wonderfully so why not use it? ___________

Or just give up and use lags :) _______________
As long as I am writing, let me mention (to OP) your new (apparently) framing square.
You *can* use it, as you are in one photo, by laying it flat across stuff and jiggling the legs flush with what you are trying to check but that is way harder - and subject to error if you don't jiggle "just right" - than just putting the inside edge of one leg against one edge of the subject and then moving the square so that the other leg touches the edge of the other subject piece.
Having seen how you were using the square I now understand why you couldn't check the door opening because of the hinge (knuckle). Of course, there are three OTHER corners you could have used where the hinge would not interfere but I'd skip them too...just stick the outside of one leg of the square against the broad face of the side - not the edge - in the opening and move the square until the other leg contacts the broad face of the top piece. No jiggling necessary.
HTH & HAND
--

dadiOH
____________________________
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/20/2012 1:33 PM, dadiOH wrote: ...

I don't have any experience w/ it that way as structural is why... :)
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I'm a fan of West Systems and their fillers.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

They'd be the ones I'd consult for an application, indeed...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Lots of West Systems products used here.
2nd picture is my son winning the World Championship in Akron, Ohio
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/LocalRamps.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/FinalHeatAkron.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/AkronTrophy.jpg
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/19/2012 10:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ...

Last point first--what can you make worse? You didn't have a working door; unless you fix it you still don't have a working door... :)
That they tend to come out of the rails and not the stiles is owing to that the in the stile they're along/parallel to the grain; in the rail it's almost entirely end grain. That is much less strong.
Unless the matching hole on the other side for the end that is protruding fits press-tight, you've not got it ready for reassembly yet.
To repeat yet again, you've got to have a snug fit for them to be ready to accept glue and when that happens and they're lined up properly then the rail will go back in place and you won't have any sag. If you note carefully, you'll see there was no glue on the coping joint surfaces--that's end grain on the stiles and wouldn't hold any way so they don't even bother. It's the dowel joints that have to be solid in order to put the thing back together again.
I repeat--until you have those joints tight one way or another there's nothing to be gained by trial assembly other than you can verify you have clean surfaces.
It all hinges on whether you have enough solid material left to be able to do that.
Don't worry about saving the dowels at all -- I generally just saw 'em off unless I'm reusing a particular one and use the dowel jig and drill 'em out. Again, use a pilot bit first to ensure alignment to keep them centered.
Depending on what you have to work with, on something like this if there are multiple identical stiles it can even be worth the time/trouble to make a jig that has the spacings for them already in it rather than doing each one individually.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Methinks y'all tend to get a little off-course. Maybe the following will help.
1.) Nothing has been glued. 2.) The last set of pics were with 1 pony clamp across the mid-section. 3.) The best nutshell description of the wood is "just badly weathered". 4.) The "warp" *appears* to be caused by mis-alignment of the dowels down at the hinge-stile/kickplate rail joint. The stile mates about 1/16" above the rail. 5.) I have no "Magic Wand". I lack both the equipment and skill of dpb.
In particular, I have no dowel jig that handles this size dowel. Doubt if I can make/buy one.
I'll see if I can pick up 5/8" dowel and drill bit today. If so, I'll experiment on one of the splintered dowels.

The replacement is always an (undesirable) option.

I could waste a lot of $ and time ...

You wanna elaborate on that last statement?

Easier said than done.
P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

All I can say to that statement is "Wow!"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/20/2012 12:54 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

It will only be misaligned if there's enough play in the dowels to allow it. If pulled together tight the matching coping surfaces will bring it back in plane.
At this point, this is a cosmetic issue only and will be resolved when the basic joinery is repaired.

Sure you can... :)
<http://www.dowl-it.com/dowl-it-pg2.html

Get a brad point or Forstner style not just a twist drill.
It is possible to get by w/ a 1/2" because once they're drilled out the bit will be self-aligning in the existing hole if careful. You have to be very cautious in keeping the alignment correct rather than letting them wander off the proper direction w/o a guide, however.
...

Use the smallest size you have w/ a brad point to get centered and be able to check that you are centered. That way if you are just a tad off you have a chance to correct it before you've reamed so much of the hole out that when you recenter and drill out you're left w/ an oblong hole instead of round...

It can be done w/ the single jig and some time/care. Once done once it will save on the time that otherwise will be required to get every single hole placement correct.
I snipped for brevity and lost the context of the comment about time & $$...it is time but unless you're being paid for doing something else w/ the time that's not much in the way of money...and, if you don't have a door the comparison is against either purchasing a new one for DIY installation or paying a carpenter/handyman to do the job for you.
What's the cost of a few dowels, a drill bit or two and some glue in comparison?
You didn't have a working door anyway or weren't going to for long even if it was able to be jammed into the opening so something's gotta' give to make progress here.
Apparently this is a stretch but it _is_ doable...it just takes a willingness to try and then to be attentive to detail in what are doing as doing it. Worst come to worst you do mess up a hole or two--you do go back and plug it and then drill it out again. Hopefully you don't need to do that more than once or twice at most. :)
I'll admit one case from years ago here...this was an early Federal house in Lynchburg w/ a handcarved door that was in _very_ bad shape on the bottom stile. The choice was to fabricated some new replacement parts or try to salvage as much of the original as possible. Fortunately, this on was not on the National Registry or in a local formal preservation district so we were not restricted by covenant or some other outside agent in what we could do other than try to retain the character as much as practical.
The homeowner's choice was that they liked the idea of as much original material as possible to be retained so since this door panel had very little integrity left structurally, I soaked in one of the epoxy restoration products similar to the following
<http://www.abatron.com/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance/liquidwood.html
and then bored a 1/4" hole completely through the door horizontally w/ a specially-made extension done by brazing a bit onto a hardened rod in three places, then counterbored and used a piece of 3/16" SS aircraft cable to tie the pieces together. After plugging the holes and finishing, it was difficult to tell(+)...I would _NOT_ recommend such extremes for this door. :)
(+) No, I _don't_ know how long it survived--we were in Lynchburg once about 15 yr after that restoration and the house had changed hands. Driving by it _looked_ like the same door still on it... :) That's been 30+ yr since, now...
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight, too.
Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled, resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.
I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail. The damned thang will NOT fit on my drill press.
If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

How bout get lost...You have dominated this gp for 3 weeks...You're still a troll.
I don't care what anyone say's.....
How have you fooled all these savvy smart posters with your splash? HUH?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It would help lessen the confusion if you stopped calling it a warp. The wood is not actually warped, is it? Or is it? It appears from the photos that what you have is actually wood that is straight, but the problem is when the joint is brought together with the dowels, the pieces do not align straight because the dowels won't allow it.
If that is the case, I'd bore out the dowel holes so that there is enough play so that it will align straight. Then I'd use epoxy or weatherproof glue to put it together. The new dowels and the epoxy will hold it all together. Assuming of course that you have gotten down to wood that is sound and not rotten.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:45:36 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"
wrote:

That appears to be substantially correct.
OK. I'll just call it the mis-alignment. :-)

The wood is somewhat deteriorated, not rotten.
I'd rather have the joint "tight but off a little" than "aligned but subject to break loose".
However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible' setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup. Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.