Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III

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On 7/16/2012 1:53 PM, hr(bob) snipped-for-privacy@att.net wrote: ...

He'll need a deep-enough casing to be able to, though...or the back holes of the hinges will be in air or so close to edge they'll be likely to split out. Other than that, though, if there is the width, it'll work, correct.
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Doh! Here we go again with the thicker door that Puddin insists isn't possible. He says the opening is just 32" wide framed 2 x 4's, no door jamb. So, I think we all agree that there isn't any apparent reason a thicker door would not work.... Might have to remove a little material from the edges, but given that they are available new and not that expensive, don't see a reason why it can't be an option.
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On 7/16/2012 4:38 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: ...

Hmmm...I missed that thread I guess... :)
What does it close against if there is no jamb????
--
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It looks like there are stops nailed to RO on the exterior.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoor06-2012002.jpg
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Please *please* do not bring code into this discussion.
I can't imagine how bizarre it will get if we take it in that direction!
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You can't tell square by appearances. You might be able to tell un- square if an opening is seriously out of square, but if it's close, you can't see it by eye.

Do you know what square means?
To state that the non-hinged side is square makes no sense. A single side can not be square. A side can only be square in relation to the top or bottom.
Perhaps you mean that the non-hinged side is plumb?
Stolen without permission from http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/plumb-level-square.htm
*****
Plumb: Plumb is defined as true to a vertical plane.
Level: Level is defined as true to a horizontal plane.
Square: Square is when a plumbed object intersects with a level object they create a 90 degree angle.
*****
You could say that the non-hinged side is square in relation to the top (or bottom) but you can't simply say that the non-hinged side is square.
The hinges should in no way prevent you from determining if the opening is square. Measure the 2 diagonals, top corner to opposite bottom corner. If those 2 measurements are equal, the opening is square.

Even if the door fit, it does not mean that the opening is square. If the door was altered to fit an un-square opening, it would fit, but it woudn't be square.
That's why so many people have said that you might be unpleasantly surprised if you spend time squaring the door in your workshop only to find that the opening is not square.
You either have to square the opening if the door ends up square, or you need to unsquare the door if you can't fix the opening.
The shape of the 2 objects must be the same.

.
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On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

Or just grab an old framing square and hold it into each top corner. "close enough for government work"

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On Jul 16, 8:23pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that the hinges might in some way impact his use of a square within the RO.
I figured there is no way the hinges could impact his ability to measure from corner to corner.
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wrote:

re: "Can't tell precisely because hinges are necessary to secure garage, but the non-hinged side -is- square"
In this situation, I do not feel confident that we can separate the 2 parts of that statement and have them each stand on their own merit.
Since the OP feels that he can not check to see if the RO is square because of the hinges, I don't have any confidence that he knows what square means, therefore I am not willing to assume that he means "the non-hinged side -is- square with the top and/or bottom."
If he comes back and rephrases that in a manner that convinces me that that is indeed what he meant *and* explains why the hinges are preventing him from determining the overall squareness of the RO, I'll certainly concede the issue.
Until then, I'll think he meant "plumb" even though I don't think that he knows that that is what he meant.
Know what I mean? ;-)
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On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 15:33:57 -0500, Puddin' Man

or more years, from what I could see.
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Notes on testing sagging door for square, etc.
I have 2 pony clamps on plumbers pipe to try to pull the thing into square.
I mount the long pony on the diagonal of the door (top left to bottom right) and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking.
There's a sizable gap on the left side between stile and the third rail. I put the shorter Pony across the middle and tighten. The window pane in the low left quadrant starts cracking *again*.
Neither operation put the door in square.
I put a rule across the bottom left rail and stile. They are not level: the stile tapers off on the left edge. So I clamp a couple hardwood boards across the bottom left rail and stile. And it still drops off a little.
After the door started sagging and scraping on the cement floor, it's sure the paint came off the bottom at spots, allowing the stile and maybe rail to "wick up" rainwater periodically, resulting in the kind of wood damage I'm seeing.
I'm running out of ideas. But I'm still listening.
P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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Puddin' Man wrote:

1. Take out the glass
2. From your most recent photos, the lock stile seems to be pretty chock-o-block to the rails; the hinge stile does not...it is far from the rails at the bottom, close at the top. You need to get it evened up if you plan to reuse the dowels. Do that by tapping in the bottom a bit, prying out the top. A little at a time in both cases.
3. Once you have the hinge stile more or less parallel to the rest of the door, clean up the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges a bit.
4. Slather the dowels, dowel holes and coped edges with thickened epoxy. If the dowels are loose in the holes it doesn't matter as the epoxy will fill very well.
5. Use a rubber mallet and start tapping the stile in a little at a time; try to keep it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door; you do that by tapping at one end, then a little farter along, then a little farther along, etc. Once it is in (or before if tapping with a mallet doesn't move it) put your pipe clamps across the width and tighten...again, gradually...first one clamp, then another. Your goal is to move the stile to the rails keeping it as parallel as possible to the rest of the door. Ideally, use at least four clamps...one each at 2-3" from the top & bottom, the other two to divide up the remaining length of the stile evenly. If all you have is two and you have to use them to move the stile, you can tighten, reposition, tighten, etc. Once the stile is against the rails they do NOT need to be cinched down very hard, just enough to keep things tight.
As you are tapping, clamping, keep checking the door for square...if you have cleaned out loose crud from the coped edges, it should go together pretty square but if need be, tighten/loosen clamps or pry as necessary. If a disaster occurs and it winds up unsguare, you can always trim and/or add wood to make it so. As already mentioned a couple of times, vinegar cleans off epoxy squeeze out.
6. Reglaze.
I still think some lags are a good idea. I'd be pretty much willing to bet that the naysayers who say they won't hold in end grain have never used them in that manner. I would *definitely* be willing to bet that they will hold perfectly if you followed my original suggestion of firming up the holes with super glue; ditto with epoxy. I like the super glue because I don't have to leave stuff clamped up for 24 hours while epoxy sets but - other than that - it is just as good. Better if the wood is damaged.
The water damage to the wood didn't come from paint rubbing off the bottom and water wicking up. It came because the rails had separated form the stiles and rain water was running down into the resultant "V".
How can glass "start to crack"? It either cracks or it doesn't.
--

dadiOH
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or...
Install a pre-hung door.
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

I nave nothing against pre-hung doors, even have 3-4. But they aren't the panacea you seem to think they are. Especially if you have never installed one.
First of all, they are not all that rigid. They are easy to rack. Especially when using the necessary shims.
Shims aren't all that hard either especially if one understands that they are used in pairs. If not, it is duck soup to bow or wind the jamb(s). Then there is the matter of where to place them (shims).
Once the jambs are shimmed where they should be and are square and/or parallel as the case may be to each other and are perpendicular to the wall, there is the matter of fastening. All the preceding can be easily undone by improper fastening.
In OPs case, he already has jambs. The 2x4s. He also has a door. All he need do is fix the door and rehang it. Or replace it and I'm with you(?) and others in that respect...I don't understand why he thinks he can't hang another door of proper width & height - regardless of thickness - where the old one was.
--

dadiOH
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First of, that was half a joke based on how many times that solution has been proposed by many - and refused by the OP.

I've done many, both interior and entry, wood, fiberglass and steel. I'm guessing the OP hasn't.
The worst was an installation on top of a 10" step into a basement room in a seriously unsquare opening that was both too wide and too narrow for any standard size door. In addition, the RO on the latch side was just paneling between studs. We ended up attaching a 1 x 6 to the closest stud, flat on the face of the paneling, to both fill the gap and to give us a solid surface on which to mount/shim the jamb.
Once it was trimmed, it came out OK, especially since the goal was just to give my son a little privacy in a basement room he was renting. Any door, even a weirdly hung one, is better than a wide open doorway into your "apartment".

Agree.
Agree.
Agree, to some extent. Yes, by definition, the RO is also the jamb in this case.
However, the jamb of a pre-hung door, or even a separate jamb kit, can be shimmed square if the RO isn't.
The OP says the RO "appears square" and even claims that "the non- hinge side is square". He says can't check the other side because of the hinges. Those statements tell me that he doesn't known what square means.

Agree, to some extent. He seems to be trying to fix it in the basement, without actually determining whether or not the RO is square. It would suck to be him if he gets the door all nice and square only to find that his RO isn't square. Remember, according to him, he can't check the RO for square because of the hinges. We've yet to hear an explanation for that claim.

I submit that the reason is becasue he is over his head and is going to trot blindly down the "I'm gonna fix and square up this old door" path regardless of where it takes him.
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On 7/16/2012 6:27 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

Well, you're far better off w/o the glass in place while you're messing around.
My first question is have you really cleaned up the joint areas and so on to give it room to move back up tightly against the original coped edges? Until that is done and done thoroughly, all else is futile--two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. If there's paint and/or dirt where the stile is suppose to end up being, needless to say it ain't a gonna' go there.
I get a feeling of lack of patience here---it's meticulous, detail work, not something that can be just "slam-bam, thank you..." and done. If you don't have the patience to truly do the detail work you may as well just toss the door in the alley and go on.
I _still_ disagree that you want lag bolts--yeah, they'll sorta hold for a while but old wood that is somewhat deteriorated will mostly just fail first and the dowels and glue will last much longer once they're fit properly. If you think you need more, I'd add another dowel or two instead.
And, again, on the order of things...absolutely do _NOT_ add epoxy and/or glue until you have _successfully_ brought the door into the final desired position at least once (and preferably more than once) w/ a "dry fit". Once you've got the glue in there (and even worse w/ an epoxy and it doesn't quite go, then again you may as well plan on tossing it in the scrap heap.
Again, to reiterate--'patience, patience, patience....
I've said all I can; I'm not monitoring this thread any longer as it's beginning to "make my eyes bleed" as a particular entertainer is wont to exclaim when news upsets him...frustration does the same thing. :)
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I made another pass thru the Restore today, and came up empty.
Also made concerted effort to split off the hinge stile from the rest and partially failed. It more-or-less separated itself at the bottom, and the intermediate rails separated, but the stile wouldn't come free of the top rail. The lock stile did separate on the other side of the top rail. The pattern of the joint is very intricate, and it doesn't wanna break. What did they use to bind such stuff back in 1955? Glue? Epoxy?? What (if any) chemical can I use to break the joint???
Y'all may or may-not be interested in the simple fact that I've been studiously trying to avoid the business of "trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole" which many responses have suggested. It looked really simple when I started ("just replace the flogging door, f'crissake!"). Now it looks a mess.
Do they even *make* exterior pre-hungs measuring 30 x (80-?) x 1 3/4"? Would it *really* fit 32 x 80 opening?? How expensive???
Thx, P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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Just as one example, Therma Tru makes pre hung exterior doors that are 30 x 78 (2'6" x 6'6"). That size door should fit a 32 x 80 opening with no modification.
http://www.thermatru.com/products/entry/fiberglass-entry-doors/ss/index.aspx
I'm sure many other manufacturers do too.
Prices will vary by manufacturer and style. I would find a contractor supply house in your area, such as a Norandex Reynolds dealer. You can usually get a better price than at a home center, but shop around.
If you want to stick with a 30 x 80 door, you'll probably need to raise the header.
Exactly how tall is your RO? 80-? Is not a number.
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It would seem if the stile is seperated everywhere but at the top, you could pry it apart enough to get a saw blade in to cut the dowels off no? Then drill them out.

If the existing opening is 32x80 and square, why isn't buying a new door only, not pre-hung, possible? I know you've indicated you think thickness is a big issue, but everyone here has told you it isn't. At least not from anything we've heard so far.

If the smaller size door is an issue and given that the framing is completely exposed inside the garage, ie there is no drywall or similar, making the job somewhat easier, I would also not rule out a pre-hung 32x80 You just have to remove the existing RO 2x4's cut off some exterior sheathing/siding, and reframe.
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On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 04:57:42 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"
wrote:

-Not- what I wanna do!

I looked (Lowes, HD, etc) and couldn't find one suitable. Closest I came was a steel-skin from HD.

For crissake, it depends on hinge placement.
P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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