roof leak

Page 3 of 4  


According to the instructions on every package of shingles. Tom
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Actually, you pointed out a few things, which stand out.
I won't even go into how the roof was installed going up along the dormer.
1. You noticed the "gap" between the window & trim. I'm going to _assume_ a lot, since we don't know _if_ flashing is where it should be, or not. Even if it's where it should be, we do not know how any window flashing would overlap the front (apron) flashing for the juncture of the wall/roof. Especially since the window sill would not allow apron flashing to run up the wall. I would caulk the gap along the window & window trim. Also, would caulk along where window sill & trim meets, and where the window meets sill. Use something decent like SW 50 yr acrylic/latex. Snip the tube for a small hole, try to caulk in between, not just the surface. Tool the area after caulking with a wet finger or sponge.
2. I've seen people put shingles over apron flashing, I never liked the idea. Some condominium associations around here require it, for aesthetics. It a water trap waiting to happen. We do _not_ know how large the flashing is under those shingles. We do _not_ know if there is flashing under those shingles. I noticed in this picture http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y, the apron flashing & shingle butt joint fall on the same seam. Although flashing should be overlapped, this wouldn't be a huge problem. But, we do _not_ know if it is overlapped, or if all flashing is this small. I always did at least 4" bent similar to this. http://tinyurl.com/yl7h6hf .
3. The sidewall step flashing, looks like it does not run past the dormer. Some people like it to stop at the dormer, like yours appears to. But, if you run it a little longer, to give it a kick _past_ not really a kick _out_, it will carry the elements away from the corner. This _could_ be a problem in your case, but it may not be.
4. To do it right, I would remove those shingles, which are on top of the suspect apron flashing. But, in any case, at the very least I would drive any & all fastener heads in, and apply a quality sealant (not caulk). For this area, neoprene appears to be the longest lasting, it may not be best in extreme areas of heat. Don't forget to caulk all around the window. 8-)
Believe it or not, I would find this a fun challenge. I used to do all our trouble shooting and flashing work. That's b/4 that age thing crept up on me.
Please do an update, when & if you find the problem.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I agree, the window is suspect for leaks (who done it). Given the window is above the leak/stain in the adjacent bath below.
One thing to check is that the bottom weep holes are not clogged. Even worse! The windows was installed upside down.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
So caulk here,
http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg
That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap you see going left to right) ?
What kind of caulk?
I want to use the absolute best product for this. Would clear silicone be OK? GE Silicone II ?
Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this one..
http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg
The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof patch.
If you look closely at this pic..
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg
It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. These are the nails right below that window all along the top row of shingles.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable. http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home_Improvement/Lexel.aspx

No. Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted. Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to repaint.

All roof cements are pretty much the same. Karnak is the more common pro brand around here, but what you have is fine for a temporary repair.

CT, this is what I was talking about when I was begging for the additional pictures. You do not have a roof-snot curable problem. As a bandaid, sure, put some on that nail head - all of the nail heads while you're at it. Collect some of the colored roof granules from the gutter or scrape some off of a spare shingle. After you dab a bit of roof cement on the nail heads, sprinkle some of the colored granules on and lightly press them into the cement. It'll help hide things. In your case it's not so critical because you really should be fixing what is ailing your roof, and that's what Kerry told you a bit earlier.
Just as it's very difficult to waterproof a basement from the inside, it's really tough to make a roof tight from the top layer. Water is a sneaky bastard and it will find it's way around the little barriers you throw in its way.
My suspicion that the roofer (hack) nailed through the flashing turned out to be correct. Flashing should not be penetrated by nails if at all possible, and it's always possible to find a way to prevent penetrating it. What should have been done is the apron flashing (the flashing that is below that window) should have been longer, exposed and the front/lowest edge should have been turned under on a sheet metal brake (called hemming - and it stiffens the edge of the flashing and keeps it straight and neat, and prevents capillary action).
If the flashing is done correctly it will be very neat, and color coordinated flashing should be used so it would be hardly noticeable against the roofing. The window itself is a major concern as I would bet dollars to donuts that the apron flashing did not wrap up and over the bottom framing of that window opening. That is the only way to prevent a leak with a window that is sitting on the roof.
You have a decision to make, and it is basically do you want to hire someone to straighten out the flashing/roofing/window problems, which could run into some serious change, or to stick bandaids on the problem and live with a recurring leak situation in your house. Your house is pretty new - the leaks won't diminish over time, and the repeated repairs are just as likely to make things worse as better.
Here's a link to a copper site that has good info on flashing: http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/flashings_copings/dormers.html Aluminum is a little different, but not much. If a potential contractor doesn't see the benefits of how that link shows flashing to be installed, then he does not know what he is doing, so keep looking.
The concealed cleats are an excellent way to keep flashing in place without penetrating the flashing with nails. The hems and other interlocks conceal the fasteners and keep the flashing in place and tight against the roof. What your house suffered was someone who cut some corners and threw in some nails to keep the flashing flat. It's like trying to lose weight by cutting off some toes.
Here's another link showing how flashing is supposed to be done - watch the long link, you may have to cut and paste into your browser address bar: http://books.google.com/books?id=uiEDP_VVEHEC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=window+flashing+dormer+apron&source=bl&ots=ezKoFwgwHO&sig=F0_MH8tsnPIWRvusU4aKy4_kgBU&hl=en&ei=Qwf7SoWOMMqpnQfv3Pj8DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=window%20flashing%20dormer%20apron&f=false
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:03:08 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

Silicone II IS paintable.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Nov 11, 3:42pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Sheesh. Will you stop getting in the way of good advice just to give partial/bad advice? Please! It's getting old, you're not helping the OP, and you just look foolish.
GE makes six or seven Silicone II caulks for different applications, and only one of them is paintable. Oddly enough they list their paintable silicone caulk as GE Silicone II* Paintable Silicone.
The OP didn't specify a particular caulk as he's not up on these things. He asked about a family of caulks - probably without realizing it. The safe answer, as opposed to the "sure, just put some roof snot on it" type of answer, is to say no, don't use silicone. Besides, silicone is a poor choice for many caulking jobs. It's great in bathrooms, but it's way down on the list for most exterior jobs as there are superior alternatives. Any of the polyurethane caulks by Sika or 3M, for instance, or the Lexel I mentioned earlier.
I find it very odd that earlier in the thread you recommended a particular brand of roof cement, where there is no appreciable difference between brands and little between products, but see no difference in caulk formulations where there is a tremendous difference.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
R,
So what exterior caulks are recommended for a particular job?
We can start with caulking around door and window trip to the siding. That would seem the most important. Then what's next? I need to do a good inspection of this house.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
window TRIM.. not trip..
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Never used Lexel. Any idea how it compares to the PL polyurethanes?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's a different animal - not really a direct comparison. It's clear, which usually doesn't hurt, it guns easily, sets up pretty quickly, stays pliable. Pick up a cartridge...it's on me...the recommendation at least. ;)
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ok.. so basically..
roof should have been shingled up to the dormer window, then flashing applied atop the shingles and against the unsided wall then the wall sided from the bottom upwards
In essence.. the "shingling" overlap approach would have been continued up the roof and onto the walls.
That flashing should be visible -- as it should be sitting on top of the to shingles. As it is, it's tucked under the shingles, and the shingles are nailed into it. Now... just maybe.. had those top row of nails not been there (and the rest of the way up the wall is done correctly) it might have been ok. But those top shingles had to be secured somehow -- so they were nailed.
Also, anywere a nail head is seen -- is probably bad ??? By comparison -- albeit most pathetic -- I shingled for the 1st time -- my chicken coop -- simple gable roof. I put drip edge on, then shingled from top to bottom, then put the ridge shingles on. The ONLY Place a nail head is seen is the last piece of ridge -- 2 nails , one on either side (and I suppose I should dab on some roofing cement).
I have nail heads exposed all over the place on my house roof.
The leak is not bad -- we get some pretty heavy rains here. I suppose I need to see if I can reach the spot in the attic, but I'm doubtful I can. The floor to that window bottom is only about 2 feet. Maybe I can see with a flashlight the area though.
Maybe a tornado will wipe us out this next spring and we can start over ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You seem to be a quick study - for a fish. ;) You've got the idea, and you're right about the overlapping materials continuing right up the wall. Think like water, and let it go where it wants to go, just guide it a bit. If you fight it, you will lose.
The first thing you have to do is to locate what exactly is leaking. I don't think it's coming from around the window trim, at least not the top and probably not the sides. You need to work your way up the roof spraying it with a hose. Let the hose spray a small area for a while before moving on. There has to be a set of eyeballs with a strong flashlight inside to see when the drips start and where. The water may travel a bit before it works its way past the sheathing, or it may just follow a nail shank down. In your situation it could be coming from a couple of different places, and you're only seeing the one apparent leak. You need the house to be tight in heavy rains with driving winds.
One trick is to use some of the newer technology to help you out in locating it. Google Ridgid SeeSnake - pretty nifty item and extremely useful. You can also use a digital camera with video to zoom in on an area that you can't get close enough to see clearly. You might have to put the card in your computer to see the pictures with enough detail, then go back and check the spot again with the hose.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Follow Rico's advice.
I would not use Silicone either, even if it says paintable. I have seen Silicone used on nail heads, chimneys, & wood trim. Silicone appears to have a problem with heat or UV rays or the combination of the two. Once it starts to fail, you might as well grab an end, and just tug. It comes off rather easily.
You do not need to make a patch any larger than the area you absolutely need to cover.
I'm not a fan of Black Jack, but if that is what you have, might as well use it. It's not like you're going to ruin the job. The roofer already took care of that. Black Jack dries out too quick, the oil properties are not long lasting. Just my opinion of course.
Looking at this picture
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg , it appears there is flashing under the shingles. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, I see what looks like 4" galvanized between the butt joints of those shingles. That row of shingles should've been worked under the flashing.
Sometimes you will have exposed nails, like the last 2 nails for ridge cap. Or, _sometimes_ to hold existing flashing down. But, never leave any nails exposed where the elements can penetrate. I see you have exposed fastener heads on the step flashing, near the corner of the dormer. Goodness, those nails shouldn't even be there. Make sure you dab every visible nail head, kinda smear it around. Don't forget to drive the nails b/4 dabbing. You could pull them, but might open up another can of worms.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Give me a couple of roofing cement recommendations please. Even if I have to, I'll shop another place besides Lowes and HD. Lowes had the BlackJack. HD stocks Henry I think. On that photo you reference -- exactly -- I took that photo to show the shingle atop the flashing and that nail has to be going through it. That's what caused me to start looking around and thus the other photos. I'm not liking this a bit. The house was built in 2000. I'd sure like to get 20 years on the roof. I might have to take an annual trek atop with a bucket of snot.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:34:27 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout

on our house and it needed replacement in 13 years. And it WAS properly installed. We didn't have any leaks, and didn't loose any shingles in wind storms, but there were areas that had lost most of the "chips" and places where the shingles were cracking - so we replaced it while there were no leaks and the weather was good.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

My favorite was Geocel 3300, it _was_ available only at supply houses. http://www.geocelusa.com/php/retail/product.php?prdb_product_id `
Check out their home page, apparently they sell their products to lumber yards also. I do not know if you will be able to find 3300 without going to a supply house, but I'd be willing to bet their other products are of superb quality as well.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

This 3300 is meant to dab the nail heads, _not_ for caulking around the windows.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible. If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again. Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall where it meets a horizontal roof surface) At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where ice dams are a fact of life. Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.