The previous owner in my house had put a BBQ on the rear deck. The BBQ is permanantly secured to the deck, and it is fed as follows: in the basement there is black pipe fed to just outside the house under the deck. At that point it changes to flexible copper pipe (3/8" I think) and fed directly to the BBQ. Is this the proper way to pipe for a BBQ? I am finishing my basement and closing the walls, and I need to relocate the line and shut off valve to a more accessible area in the basement like the laundry room. And since I need to take the piping apart, I want to know if I can use the same set up, or should it be done a different way.
Also since the copper pipe under the deck has a lot of extra slack, can I make the copper-to-black pipe connection inside the house rather than outside under the deck, assuming I can use copper?
I think the short answer to your question is that it's not code compliant, at least in most places. What has been and is code compliant just about everywhere for that application is coated black pipe. Some places also allow galvanized. But more commonly used is CSST, corrogated stainless steel tubing, which is a lot easier, faster, to work with. Anything you use is supposed to be min 18" deep. IDK if all CSST is rated for underground or they have ones that have different coating.
CSST is supposed to be installed by trained techs only and most places would not sell it to DIY. But in recent years I've seen it in either HD or Lowes and I think they have training book of some kind that's supposed to, well, train you.... The issue is it's a whole different system of attaching fittings to the tubing. Think of PEX as an example.
If it were my installation, I'd go with black pipe to the outside, where you'd have a shutoff valve. From there, CSST or continue with coated/wrapeed black pipe. I've done black pipe myself. Never did CSST so can't advise on how tricky it is, is it safe to DIY, etc.
I just took a look at the common type CSST that Lowes sells, which is probably what you'd have to use it it's DIY. To use it for underground, it has to be inside a conduit, so you could run PVC to protect it. But of course what codes are adopted vary by area. If it's an easy route, might be just as easy to use coated black pipe.
Just to clarify, the existing piping does not go underground. Where it exits the house is under a 4 foot high deck, and the copper piping is fastened to the deck joists underneath, then comes up to the BBQ on the deck.
Allow me to correct what I said earlier. After seeing CRNG's post I did a bit more research. Here is what the National Fuel Gas Code actually says about copper tubing:
"403.5.2 Copper and brass tubing. Copper tubing shall comply with Standard Type K or L ofASTM B 88 orASTM B 280. Copper and brass tubing shall not be used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas (0.7 milligrams per 100 liters)."
The latter part is where some of the differences regarding using copper come from by state and gas supplier. Apparently most nat gas is cleaner today than it used to be. In aeas where the suppy had hydrogen sulfide, that reacted with the copper. But some areas may still not allow copper because the code hasn't changed or they have reason to believe the gas could contain too much HS. The only way you'll know for sure is to check with the local gas company or plumbing code official. You could try googling for "copper gas pipe" with the name of your gas company or state. And you may be perfectly fine with your settup. For sure, if copper is allowed, it's going to be the easiest method for you.
I would put an accessible shutoff valve in the basement near where the pipe exits to go outside, though apparently that is not a code reqt. Code does require a shutoff valve, seperate from the appliance, within 6 ft. That could be just before the quick disconnect, which is what people typically use.
I recently took a continuing ed for electricians class. CSST came up because it has to be bonded to the earthing system. The instructor, an electrical inspector, has read quite a bit on CSST. It has caused fires as the result of nearby lightning strikes. The stuff can wind up at a far different potential that other nearby metal and arc to the metal, which can cause a hole in the tube. Instructor's comment was that if you are lucky the arc ignites the leaking gas. The alternative is an explosion.
The question is who does the bonding. His recommendation was to not touch it; then you won't be named in the law suit. If electricians do bond it, follow the instructions exactly. Manufacturers have different instructions. The guy I sat next to had a house built and wouldn't allow CSST be used. I would use black pipe, copper/flare, or rigid copper pipe can be used if connections are hard-soldered (like silver solder). (May vary by jurisdiction.)
I just did my gas BarB Q last fall. EVERY gasfitter I called wanted to use the yellowjacket corrugated stainless crap because they were too lazy to thread iron pipe. I decided I'd do all the fitting of the pipe and see what the fitters wanted to do the install and test. SAME PRICE!! And I was supplying the material, cut and threaded to fit.
Third guy I asked sais "you can cut and fit the iron?? Install it yourself - no law against it - just call the gas co for an inspection when you are done - so that's what I did. The inspector said "real nice job" and gave me the tag - no charge.
Curious why there aren't similar problems with say copper tubing? I can see black iron pipe being more resistant to a lightning strike because it's large, thick and has a high melting point. But what about 3/8 copper tubing? Or is it that the ripples in the corrugated are a big part of the problem because they increase the impedance?
CSST is really thin - far thinner than copper tubing. That is why even relatively large stuff (1") is so easy to run. An arc melt a hole in the thin material.
Gas piping never used to be bonded to the electrical earthing system where it entered the house. (The NEC prohibits using gas service pipe as an earthing electrode.) I think all manufacturers now require a bonding connection at entry (was not required until recently).
The instructor commented on a single 'near' lightning strike (OH) where
5 houses caught fire. At least a couple were 'properly' bonded.
===== Ask this old house recently had an episode where black pipe was run for gas. (I think it was, deja vu, for a patio BBQ, with a detachable outside connection.) Trethewey had an assortment of lengths, including many short sizes, and he didn't do any cut-and-thread. A run may have multiple pieces to get the right overall length.
I would do it exactly the way it is currently done now -and add a shuttof outside before the grill as well - with a lockable handle so you can turn the gas off and lock it off from outside to prevent tampering - and not have to turn it off and on from the basement.
On mine I have the lock-off at the meter - which is 10 feet from the BarBQ - and a normal ball valve at the quick disconnect - the BarBQ is connected by rubber hose/quick connect about 3 feet from the BarBQ.
On mine I only needed one pipe cut and threaded - all the rest were stock lengths. I could have bodged it together with stock lengths, but would have added another 2 joints. minimum - and Home Despot does the cut and thread for free if you buy the pipe from them. I bought all the stock lengths elsewhwere for significantly better price, and just bought the one shorty from them.
On Monday, February 25, 2013 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
In the US many locations don't allow copper. I'd go black iron to the outs ide, shutoff valve there, and flex stainless steel from there to the grill under the deck.
2/24/2013 12:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: >> On Feb 24, 12:56 pm, bud-- wrote: >>> On 2/24/2013 9:08 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> But more >>>> commonly used is CSST, corrogated stainless steel tubing, which >>>> is a lot easier, faster, to work with. >>> >>> I recently took a continuing ed for electricians class. CSST came up >>> because it has to be bonded to the earthing system. The instructor, an >>> electrical inspector, has read quite a bit on CSST. It has caused fires
far different potential that other nearby metal and arc to the metal, >>> which can cause a hole in the tube. Instructor's comment was that if you >>> are lucky the arc ignites the leaking gas. The alternative is an explosion. >>> >>> The question is who does the bonding. His recommendation was to not >>>
it, follow the instructions exactly. Manufacturers have different >>>
instructions. The guy I sat next to had a house built and wouldn't allow >>>
CSST be used. I would use black pipe, copper/flare, or rigid copper pipe >>> can be used if connections are hard-soldered (like silver solder). (May >>> vary by jurisdiction.) >> >> Curious why there aren't similar problems with say >>
copper tubing? I can see black iron pipe being more >> resistant to a lightning strike because it's large, thick and >> has a high melting point. But what about
3/8 copper tubing? >> Or is it that the ripples in the corrugated are a big >>
part of the problem because they increase the impedance? > >CSST is really thin
- far thinner than copper tubing. That is why even >relatively large stuff (1") is so easy to run. An arc melt a hole in the >thin material. > >Gas piping never used to be bonded to the electrical earthing system
earthing electrode.) I think all manufacturers now require a bonding >connection at entry (was not required until recently). > >The instructor commented on a single 'near' lightning strike (OH) where >5 houses caught fire. At least a couple were 'properly' bonded. > >===== >Ask this old house recently had an episode where black pipe was run for >gas. (I think it was, deja vu, for a patio BBQ, with a detachable >outside connection.) Trethewey had an assortment of lengths, including >many short sizes, and he didn't do any cut-and-thread. A run may have >multiple pieces to get the right overall length. > On mine I only needed one pipe cut and threaded - all the rest were stock lengths. I could have bodged it together with stock lengths, but would have added another 2 joints. minimum - and Home Despot does the cut and thread for free if you buy the pipe from them. I bought all the stock lengths elsewhwere for
shutoff valve there, and flex stainless steel from there to the grill under the deck. I'd dissagree - Ose black iron to the "demarkation point" - where you have a shutoff and usually a quick connect - and rubber flex line from there to the BarBQ unless the BarBQ is so rigidly mounted that no flex is required. Soft copper tube is allowed EVERYWHERE for sweet natural gas, so if you don't want/need a quick disconnect, go with soft copper the last 3 feet or so. The flexible stainless stuff should NOT be used outside (many places do not allow it) and I hate the stuff even inside. Soft copper is fine for virtually all commercial natural gas
- less than .3Grains of Hydrogen Sulphide per 100 cu ft of natural gas. Well head gas, or "sour gas" is hard on copper pipe. See Universal Plumbing code 1210.1
te: >On 2/24/2013 12:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: >> On Feb 24, 12:5
6 pm, bud-- wrote: >>> On 2/24/2013 9:08 AM, trad.. .@optonline.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> But more >>>> commonly used is CSST , corrogated stainless steel tubing, which >>>> is a lot easier, faster, to work with. >>> >>> I recently took a continuing ed for electricians class. CSST came up >>> because it has to be bonded to the earthing system. The i nstructor, an >>> electrical inspector, has read quite a bit on CSST. It ha s caused fires >>> as the result of nearby lightning strikes. The stuff can wind up at a >>> far different potential that other nearby metal and arc t o the metal, >>> which can cause a hole in the tube. Instructor's comment w as that if you >>> are lucky the arc ignites the leaking gas. The alternati ve is an explosion. >>> >>> The question is who does the bonding. His recom mendation was to not >>>
e >>> can be used if connections are hard-soldered (like silver solder). (M ay >>> vary by jurisdiction.) >> >> Curious why there aren't similar proble ms with say >> copper tubing? I can see black iron pipe being more >> resis tant to a lightning strike because it's large, thick and >> has a high melt ing point. But what about 3/8 copper tubing? >> Or is it that the ripples i n the corrugated are a big >> part of the problem because they increase the impedance? > >CSST is really thin - far thinner than copper tubing. That i s why even >relatively large stuff (1") is so easy to run. An arc melt a ho le in the >thin material. > >Gas piping never used to be bonded to the elec trical earthing system
s >an earthing electrode.) I think all manufacturers now require a bonding
ommented on a single 'near' lightning strike (OH) where >5 houses caught fi re. At least a couple were 'properly' bonded. > >===== >Ask this old house recently had an episode where black pipe was run for >gas. (I thi nk it was, deja vu, for a patio BBQ, with a detachable >outside connection. ) Trethewey had an assortment of lengths, including >many short sizes, and he didn't do any cut-and-thread. A run may have >multiple pieces to get the right overall length. > On mine I only needed one pipe cut and threaded - all the rest were stock lengths. I could have bodged it together with stock lengths, but would have added another 2 joints. minimum - and Home Despot does the cut and thread for free if you buy the pipe from them. I bought al l the stock lengths elsewhwere for
outside, shutoff valve there, and flex stainless steel from there to the g rill under the deck.
Show us in the code where rubber hose is an allowed means of connection for running a nat gas line......
Soft copper tube is allowed EVERYWHERE for sweet natural
How could you know what actually is adopted and allowed everywhere?
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