Problem with winter dryness

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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth] On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:07:26 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@gatecom.com (Gary R. Lloyd) wrote:

Thus the "_some_" qualification I added. Your description is better ;-)

I certainly agree with your statement. Of course, natural infiltration is very hard to control, but the concept of being dependent upon powered ventilation doesn't thrill me. The two installations I have examined in ME (Maine) had the ERV in the basement. No alarm would sound if the fan failed meaning the ERV system useless.
gerry
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wrote:

People just dont die in well sealed houses.
Its really only seen much in trucks and people smugglers etc.
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
wrote:

Well, many of these homes have propane cooking stoves (handy for power outages) and AC powered CO detectors. Only the fire detectors are required to have battery backup with low battery alarms. Houses sealed very tightly.
Seems likely the average person might be tempted to use the cooking stove since most furnaces need AC to provide heat. (Oil furnaces seem most common). I haven't seen a ODP on a cooking stove yet.
A couple winter days without power might just be poor for one's health! I don't think these codes mix very well when the power goes off.
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wrote:

The obvious fix for that is to either have battery powered CO detectors or an UPS for those if power outages are common.

I doubt they are actually sealed tightly enough to kill anyone.
You certainly dont see examples in the news of people being found dead in that situation.
Another obvious possibility is to just have something that can be opened manually when there is a power outage so it isnt as very tightly sealed.
Not a shred of rocket science required at all.

And I havent noticed anyone ending up dead like that either.
The short story is that it clearly isnt a significant problem.

Unlikely.
Completely trivial to fix by requiring the CO detector to work thru those.
Wouldnt be much harder to mandate a CO detector that provided some ventilation as well even when there is a power failure.
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
wrote:
well clipped to make a point

So there are no health issues unless someone dies?
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gerry wrote:

Sure there can be health issues without death. CO causes headaches, nausea and sleepiness. It'll affect some people faster than others.
In order for someone to die there would have to be a combination of circumstances and very poor decisions. This is a good reason to have battery backup on your CO detector and not use stoves as a source of heat.
Anthony
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wrote>>>> People just dont die in well sealed houses.>>> Well, many of these homes have propane cooking stoves

Not as far as well sealed houses are concerned.
And if you consider that say humidity levels are a problem health wise, its completely trivial to have that automatically controlled too.
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wrote:

Even if they do, its worth it to save Iran.
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:12:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@gatecom.com (Gary R. Lloyd) wrote:

Yes saving Iran is uppermost in my thinking too ... now can you please explain why?
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:46:09 -0500, Joel M. Eichen

Yeah Nick... explain why?
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ASHRAE's "15 cfm per occupant" standard is designed to avoid health issues. Smoking, radon, and so on may require more. It's surprising how little hvac "tech method gurus" know about ASHRAE ventilation standards.

We've recently found more of our oil under their country. China did too, and they are willing to pay for it, so now we feel a need to invade Iran to stop the spread of nuclear weapons and bring them the joys of democracy, by force.
I'm just back from a Bruderhof weekend. They picked me up at the Rhinecliff train station in one of their 10 used-French-fry-oil-powered Diesel Jettas. They kept the original Diesel fuel tank and added a heated 5 gallon plastic tank in the trunk. Their newest versions switch to and from Diesel to veg automatically, with a 20 sec Diesel fuel purge cycle as you turn the key off, leaving Diesel fuel in the system for easy starting.
Nick
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On 21 Nov 2004 14:53:14 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Do you know what a non sequitur is?
Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com
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On 21 Nov 2004 14:53:14 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

For a family of four, that comes to 60 CFM.
You have stated that miners have been shown to pass out at 5 CFM per person. For our family of four, that comes to 20 CFM.
You advocate the Canadian model, where the passive leakage is reduced to 2.5 CFM. Then you would make up the difference by forced ventilation.
Is this a fair representation of your position?
Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com
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These 19th century coal-mining experiments were an early basis for ventilation standards.

Sure. This also works in most of Europe, and in many books on efficient home design, eg The Superinsulated Home Book, by Nisson and Dutt (Wiley and Sons, 1985.)

Sure. It may be time now to look for better solutions instead of problems.
Nick
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On 22 Nov 2004 08:11:30 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

What are the pros and cons of tighter construction with forced ventilation versus passive ventilation (leakage), assuming they both result in roughly the same amount of ventilation?
Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com
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wrote:

The obvious pro with tight construction and active ventilation is that you have real control over the ventilation and can vary it depending on stuff like CO CO2 and humidity levels.
The only real downside is that you may need some form of small UPS or internal battery power or failsafe to an automatic shutter etc if extended periods without power are possible/likely.
I'd personally just have a decent warning system with a completely unambiguous warning message where its clear what is warning about.
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wrote:

Another real downside is price. What would be the payback?
Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com
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wrote:

Nope. You'd normally save enough on the lower heating costs that better sealing produces.

Obviously that would vary with the location and how much heating is done.
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wrote:

Of course that's true. Nonetheless it is the question a homeowner is going to ask. What is needed for the discussion is a typical house in a typical location, with typical construction costs and typical energy prices.
Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com
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wrote:

Its unlikely to be a question worth answering in areas that need much winter heating. In other words good sealing will pay for itself, its a tad academic just how long that will take.

Typical is completely irrelevant. And you will certainly get a decent payback in areas that do much heating.
If you are anal enough to care, you need to use actual values, not typicals.
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