Piggy-backing new 125v outlet on existing 250v outlet?

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I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one 240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John
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- John -

closet. The

one
need a

the
he
Thanks! ---

- Nehmo - Take it from one side, and ignore the inevitable responses that don't agree with this.
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Right, and ignore anybody that says this does'nt meet code either...
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- zafdor -

- Nehmo - We are not automatons, and in real life, it's not desirable nor necessary to always adhere to the NEC. In any case, someone claiming something is in violation of some code or law, should cite the code or law. -- ******************** * Nehmo Sergheyev * *********************
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This is Turtle
No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there.
TURTLE
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- TURTLE -

to branch

circuit
- Nehmo - What might the "required electric equipment" be?
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:

A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it. The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at 15A or 20A. Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer. There are fuse holders for edison fuses that fit in a standard electrical box. I don't know if you could find one to fit one side of a double box and have a space for a Decora receptical (for the GFCI) with a matching cover plate.
You also might end up tripping the breaker for the dryer with this arrangement if you run the washing machine while the dryer is running on a high-heat cycle.
Bob
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- Nehmo -

- zxcvbob -

- Nehmo Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming it won't overload it, and it probably won't).
- zxcvbob -

- Nehmo If OP wants, he can use a GFCI receptacle for the washer, but it wouldn't be required by NEC. The outlet would be dedicated and not readily accessible.
NEC 2002 "210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders. (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (1) Bathrooms (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (3) Outdoors Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (4) Crawl spaces at or below grade level (5) Unfinished basements for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (6) Kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces (7) Wet bar sinks where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink. (8) Boathouses (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel: (1) Bathrooms (2) Rooftops Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (3) Kitchens"
A better forum for electrical questions is something like this: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wiring/msg1218163318130.html
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Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the breaker limit the heating coil is.
Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard.
Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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- Chris Lewis -

- Nehmo - OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't cause a problem.
- Chris Lewis -

- Nehmo - If you use "good chance" to substitute for suplied info, you can get any conclusion you want. If you're curious if there's a ground, you have to ask. Otherwise you need to condition your response. Normally a NEMA#14-30R outlet http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/web/outlet/quailplug.html has both a ground and a neutral.
- Chris Lewis -

- Nehmo - Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?
Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. There's a big difference in cost here.
--
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A combo unit which was designed to operate on 1 220v 30a circuit. 2 individual units, one also designed to operate on a 30a 220v circuit, and the other designed to operate on it's own 120v circuit isn't the same thing.

Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f).
"(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry. Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises that are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.
Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required."
And in article 210-11 (c) (2)
"210-11. Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in accordance with Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).***
(c) Dwelling Units.
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other outlets. ***

Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code? Do the rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford it?

"those who consider price alone..."

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com
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- Nehmo -

washer
- HaHaHa -

- Nehmo - You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available: ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%202002%20Edition.zi p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6AGFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ BEKIHC|/ I need 2005.
- HaHaHa -

shall be

area in a

premises that

not be

facilities
be
motor-operated
accordance with

specific
Code and

circuits
20-ampere
outlet(s)
outlets.
- Nehmo - That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron, press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer, how can it be absent there?
- Nehmo -

takes
- HaHaHa -

Do the

it?
- Nehmo - You and your accomplices are just following the common news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route. It goes along with crabbing at people.
- Nehmo -

- HaHaHa -

- Nehmo - I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price.
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote: ... ...

You're reading it wrong...it's saying in an apartment building where there are (a) communal facilites, or (b) the landlord has said, "tough, go to the corner laundromat", <THEN> (and only then) can you <NOT> have the dedicated outlet.
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This is Turtle.
Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100 amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon.
TURTLE
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Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer.
If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off.
[That's a joke! ;-)]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
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This is Turtle.
You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real good.
TURTLE
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Even better, wrap the wires around your finger. You'll find out about overloads even faster than with signal fires.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
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Chris Lewis wrote:

I usually just touch my tongue to the wire see if it's hot. HTH :-)
Bob
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I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a simila
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside th walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-styl one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-i cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the onl reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outle wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my hous are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outle is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exis for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet curren codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied b their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must b some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the olde homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance
-- Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=5 View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t175
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The main difficulties people encounter switching 240V outlets over to 120V is that the result isn't breakered properly and/or has no ground.
Or they try to mix 240V and 120V devices on the same circuit. Yes, stoves and dryers are such, but they're single devices, not multiple. There's a reason why stoves and dryers are supposed to be the _only_ things on their circuits.
You say that you have a 240V 3 wire receptacle in the wall with other 120V outlets attached to it. This is illegal for at least three reasons:
1) The 120V outlets cannot have proper grounds. Ground != neutral, potentially quite dangerous. 2) The 120V outlets are inherently breakered at 30A - highly dangerous. 3) Mixture of different voltages for seperate devices.
The closest you can get to "right", without pulling new wire, is to rearrange the wiring in the panel so that it's a single 120V circuit on a 15A or 20A breaker (with oversize wire, but that's okay). Which ends up needing to use an insulated wire as ground - you have to use the white as neutral - so that means you'll have to use a black or red as ground.
Code-wise that's illegal, but an inspector may permit it if you have no other reasonable alternative.
--
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