Paslode Nail Gun - Being Made in China !

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Nonsense. Fortunes are being made as we speak, in people doing real estate business in the fast growing parts of China such as Shanghai. The land is owned by the government, but is "sold" on long-term lease. The individual buildings are owned by the leaseholder. This is similar to arrangements in many places in the world (including Hawaii). I was surprised during travel through Shandong and other wheat and grain-growing areas at the quality of the rural houses, which specifically are owned by the farmers. They were of a common design, similar to a Jim Walter basic house, but with a window wall all along the south side for wintertime heating. There is currently a property boom in Southern China building resorts and vacation homes for tourists, and I have friends who have bought their own vacation homes in subdivisions near Zhuhai in southern China, where we'll probably stay on our next visit to Asia.
As a matter of interest, even before reverting to China, all Hong Kong land ownership was retained by the (British) government, and land "sales" were actually 99 year leases. (There is only one privately-owned plot in Hong Kong, which dates back to its establishment.) All those skyscrapers in HK sit on leased land, but the buildings have private owners.
We owned an apartment in Macau for many years, and home ownership in Macau, Zhuhai, Hong Kong, Guangdong and other parts of China is unchanged.

Again, not true, and the Constitution does not say that. Even during the Cultural Revolution there was still family property and homes, and the government later paid compensation to those whose homes were taken over or destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.

a whole series of rights of the individual. You can't support your supposition by reference to the constitution.
You'd be better off trying to argue that the government wasn't living up to the constitutional requirements, and in fact the constitution is a document which seems to lag behind the actualities of Chinese life. In fact, what China has is a traditional Chinese-style central government, in which much of the actual authority is exercised not by the central government but within the individual provinces. Post HK-reversion, rather than Hong Kong starting to look like the rest of China, China is quickly starting to look like Hong Kong.
IMHO China's impact post-Mao and post-Cultural Revolution is very similar to what happened in Japan post WWII. We've survived this before, and as long as we understand how the world is evolving, we'll survive it again.
There are enough reasons to discuss China business without having to make up things that aren't true -- Regards
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World Traveler wrote:

there's a issue to resolve here. While people in this thread argue how in PRC u only "own" the building and the lot/land is owned by the government like Hawaii, the major diff here is * in Hawaii, if the state gov wanna build a freeway passing thru ur home, what process does the state gov need to go thru before kicking u out of ur house, and * in PRC if the country wanna build a dam flooding ur farm home, what process the gov need to go thru before kicking u out.
By law and constitution, both PRC, USA, Hawaii, grant u freedom of speech. How it is enforced is another story.

That's understandable in some sense -- UK only leased what we know as HK today by 99 years from China (represent by Qing dynasty). It cant "sell" these lots to private individual. This is why HK lot ownership are retained by the british gov.

How, and in what name? In other words, is it realy a "compensation"? By calling it compensation, it mean chinese communist party admit its mistake role in cultural revolution. Otherwise its nothing but a mouth-sealing fee. Consider why Japan today is providing low or zero interest loan to China but not calling it a WWII compensation.
During USA civil war, US gov confiscate general Lee's homestead in virginia (what we know today as Arlington national cemetary). Later after the war his family sue the government to get it back -- but instead receive payment cuz many civil war soldiers are already buried there and Lee's family cant use the land any more. Here u note one major diff. In USA, u can sue federal gov and state gov for their mistake and u have a chance to win. Talk bout that for PRC -- can people sue the center, provincial gov for their wrongs?

Right. The issue here is how the law and constitution are enforced. both USA and PRC has law for support freedom of speech. U know what come out of their law. Ill bet Charles Liu is gonna mention patriot act again. Hehehe, then we can inspect how the law are applied.

I wonder how u say "China is quickly starting to look like Hong Kong". U can start with the recent anti-Japan protest in Shanghai. No chinese media mention the protest for days.

True. Welcome these people to the China NG then. ^_^
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World Traveler wrote:

You're wasting your time with these China bashers. They've formed their opinion already, even without any evidence. I can just hear people say "China's law and its application" this and that. Well, those who believe China's court always side with the government, they are wrong. China is just like America, there is eminent domain abuse, and just like US, China's courts have its own process.
Here are a few cases in China where victims of land use abuse sued and won:
http://www.china.org.cn/english/government/100939.htm
http://www.china-labour.org.hk/iso/article.adp?article_idD41&category_name onomic%20Reform
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-06/12/content_338768.htm

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charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote:

Improvement that charles liu dont call others 'jokers' when they dont agree with him. ^_^

Residents suing city commision.

Village committee is sued.

Guanzhou municiapl government.
Come on, charles liu. U continue ur always trick. When others r talking bout sueing PRC central government and provincial gov. (these gov owns the land/lot), u wanna substitute in sues against village and city. That's filthy already in scChina. U wanna make urself notorious outside scChina?
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china produces inferior products and our overflowing landfill sites are testament to this. add the fact that wallmart/home depot and other such robber baron corperations support the wholesale export of north american jobs to asia and we have a receipe for financial disaster. NEVER BUY CHINESE, DO WITHOUT AND SAVE YOUR HOMELAND FROM THE NEW YELLOW MENACE.

onomic%20Reform
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snipped-for-privacy@all.youSOB wrote:

See how the anti-China promotion made you forget about our Benedict Arnold WASP CEOs and decision makers that exported jobs in the first place, and the congress who takes money from them and only do things out of appearances, like scapegoating China for our problems. If we destroy this "yellow menace", our sell-out corporations will simply export America's jobs elsewhere. Then what?
Instead of falling in line like lemmings and toe the China-bashing line, it's time to kick some of our won WASP homeboy asses, y'all.

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charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote:

Then what? Can u focus on PRC court and law on labor and land dispute?

I think u better comment on PRC law on land ownership first. ^_^ Switching topics is ur favorite in soc.culture.china, but other people in the home building NGs dont like that. :^))
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charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote:
[text omitted]

That's a typical land use and zoning code violation matter. There is plenty of justification for creating zoning laws that protect individual rights. Abuses of zoning laws by government power seekers and do-gooders are common, and the cases wind up un the courts in the US. Private abuse is a matter that requires the collusion of government officials - and that means the taking of property or property rights or rights under zoning laws with out the free volition of the individual property owner.
Issues such as that in the PRC masquerade as private property issues when, in fact, all real estate land property except for collectives is owned by the PRC and is leased or use priveledges granted by the PRC.

http://www.china-labour.org.hk/iso/article.adp?article_idD41&category_name onomic%20Reform
Leasehold rights are legitimate real estate interests in a free society, and they are identified and agreed to with volitional agreements that may by defended in court. That case is one of an individual fight against the PRC who had unlawfully taken her rights. In the PRC, however, rights, such that Americans know, are unknown in the PRC. They only have priveledges that are "lawfully" accorded by the state. Administrative decisions determine the outcomes of disputes.
Good luck if you think that individual property owners have western rights in the PRC. They don't.

[text omitted]
That is an example of Eminent Domain, and that is one of the more evil types of statism, and that exist in the USA and in the PRC. Eminent Domain, however, is the central principle of Communism, and in the USA Constitution it is a carry over from the kingdoms of Europe. The Framers of the US Constitution erred in establishing that principle in the USA. Nowadays we in the USA are finding repeated examples of private firms who get local governments to use the Federal Constitution principle of Eminent Domain in order to obtain properties that don't belong to them and that they cannot otherwise buy. That requires the bribery, clout, and suasion of government officials. Several cases are currently being brought through courts, and Supreme Court decisions will most certainly result. A Constitutional clash will amount to opposition of the pragmatist-statists and the advocates of individual rights and individual property rights.
There are a mix of type of disputes in each of these cases.
These examples in the PRC are similar to thousands of disputes that are happening in the USA Local, State, and possibly Federal Courts every day. The issues are the same: statism vs. the rights of individuals.
Most issues like those are routinely handled by the zoning boards, local and state courts.
The people in the PRC are taking their first baby steps by resisting PRC tanks, by writing ideas, and by bringing issues before the bureaucratic courts of the PRC and its agencies. They have millions of cases to go before enough quality decisions are considered to have the weight of law, or Common Law, and that as defined as principles may also be enacted into laws by free legislatures. It may take them one hundred years to get to where the USA is in terms of the recognition of absolute individual rights and the concept that the purpose of the state is to identify and to protect the rights of individuals.
The poster's quotation of URLs does a dis-service to individual rights everywhere by not explaining the relevance, meaning, and consequences of these issues.
Those people may or may not succeed in their cases, but the general sense of the omnipresent dictatorship sure as hell makes it self known in those reports. Note, also, that the news writers had to dance around the politically sensitive issues regarding confrontations to the authority of the state and its bureaucrats.
Writer, Charles Liu, of charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com, is an obvious apologist of the PRC.
Note that Mr. Liu has not come out in defense of individual rights, and rather, he has provided a vigorous and mixed implied defense of the omnipresent propriety of the PRC state. Just because the little guy is fighting for some semblance of rights, does not mean that Mr. Liu is against the dictatorship. It is clear that the PRC state determines what is justice and that it is always omnipowerful.
Mr. Liu does, however, imply that Eminent Domain is a violation of rights, and that it should be opposed. That is a rare viewpoint, and Liu should be commended for that.
Mr. Liu may have more to say.
Ralph Hertle
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Ralph Hertle wrote:
(snip) Thank u for ur analysis on land issues.

People in soc.culture.china know that for years.

For people's information in alt.building.construction and alt.home.repair, Charles Liu is active poster in soc.culture.china. His frequent defense of PRC/CCP is -- when someone mention what chinese commuinist party do wrong, what PRC do wrong, within 3 or 4 posts (depend on his mood), he'll -- argue how USA treat native americans; -- argue how USA drop dirty bombs and radioactive waste to others; -- argue what US patriot act is a bad law; anyhow, his strategy is moving the criticism of PRC/CCP to attack on USA, and then he achieve his defense of PRC when others are arguing on USA. This time his moving to Hawaii is one example.
As a naturalized USA citizen, he like to say "we americans". but when asked since USA is so bad, how come he became a USA citizen, and his reply is "my father wanna me so".
Okie dokie. I still read ur good article on land issues. ^_^

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Ralph, I think you made a very fundamental mistake - I said "eminent domain *abuse*". That's very different than "eminent domain". Just like America, China too have such abuse, and the three cases where the government was judged as wrong demonstrate that China do in fact have its own process, and protection of individual's rights to property, including real property, in practice and in law (as demonstrated by China's recent contitution amendments regarding protection of real property.)
Your anit-communism indoctrination, likely ingrained from yester years of cold war ideology, is out dated and far from reality. Go to China and see for yourself.
Ralph Hertle wrote:

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It's actually starting to decrease, the trade deficit with China due to increased construction, requiring more imports from other countries, US included.
The real problem lies in their currency, pegged to the U.S. dollar. They need to let their currency free-float on the market before things can really even out.
Supposedly the Chinese gov't are gearing up for this, or they're just paying lip service to the U.S. Congress, nobody really knows except for Beijing.
Congress won't do anything but pass unenforcable puffery legislation out of fear of the backlash from U.S. business interests and Chinese relations.
A tangled web, indeed
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You might want to read up on how we are scapegoating China's currency for our deficit problem. Here's an article from LA Times just couple weeks ago:
http://www.latimes.com/news/op inion/la-ed-trade16apr16,0,87382.story
***April 16, 2005***
"The escalating China-bashing in Congress on other fronts is threatening to create a far greater economic problem than any we face currently. Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) is threatening to hold up the confirmation of the Bush administration's nominee for trade representative, Rep. Rob Portman (R-Ohio), unless the Senate considers his bill aimed at stemming China trade. Another bill would slap hefty tariffs unless Beijing stops pegging its currency, the yuan, to the dollar.
The currency issue is a convenient scapegoat.
Unless you live on the other side of the Pacific, it's far better to blame an undervalued yuan for all our supposed ills than it is to blame
federal budget deficits or the Federal Reserve's role in artificially inflating consumer spending. Nor is it convenient for members of Congress to dwell on the fact that Washington has often advised other nations to peg their currencies to the dollar as a means of encouraging
stability, and that as recently as the East Asian financial crisis of the late 1990s the U.S. was grateful that China didn't devalue the yuan."
And this trend of China bashing goes way back, as the exact same issue also came up couple years ago:
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/dis play.article?id=2814
"The Fine Art of China-Bashing
As the Bush administration pushes even harder on China to revalue the yuan, the real motivations behind the "China-bashing" by US officials remain shady. Is the administration's rhetoric really meant to "help U.S. manufacturers compete against Chinese companies", ask the authors,
"or just help U.S. politicians score points with anxious voters"? When the US Treasury Department found China innocent of manipulating the yuan in its recent report, members of the US Congress attacked the agency as weak-willed and are choosing to ignore the study's conclusions."

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charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote:

Oh common, charles liu has been tooting this URL for weeks in soc.culture.china and he think now the home repair and building construction NGs need a new shot of CCP propaganda.

Maybe charles liu wanna explain why Central bank of PRC governor said in Boao meeting that RMB has to reevaluate under international pressure?

And charles liu has been told many many times that the article "the fine art of China-bashing" is in October 2003 and he gotta find something new for his propaganda purpose in soc.culture.china.

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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Here's another article explaining why China's currency isn't undervalued, by Prof. Michael Connolly, U Maimi Chair of Economics:
http://cet.hnu.net.cn/ca_fx22.ppt
"The Current Account and the Exchange Rate: The tail does not wag the dog"
"the real exchange rate has remained relatively stable since 1986, due largely to greater inflation in China that has offset yuan devaluation.
In fact, in 2004 it only appreciated 2%. The RMB has in fact slightly
depreciated in real terms since 1986."
So China's currency isn't the IMF-style "dig your own grave" free float (just ask Thailand and George Soros.) US monetary policy intervenes all the time to control the dollar. EU member currencies are pegged to the EU, and EU itself is heavily regulated by crawling peg.
If "free float" is so good, how come we ain't doing it? I needn't remind you our US$ was pegged to gold for hundreds of years, and the PRC is only around for 50 some years.
Give them a chance to do it on their own, for their own interest. That's what we'd do.
Then it begs the question why are we bashing China and scapegoating their currency for our problems. Because when it comes to our problem, it's to hell with everybody else - especially for our leaders of society to keep their wealth.
Have you seen what happened to the oil stocks since we invaded Iraq on false WMD accusation and dirty bombed Iraq from highest living standard in region back to the stone age? The stocks are going thru the roof:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=HAL&time=3year

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charles snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote:

He and u must explain where PRC got the money to buy US treasury. by buying US bond and treasury, efectively beijing is lending money to USA government to avoid RMB revaluation.

Because RMB pegged to USA dollar and us dollar is falling?

EU member currency pegged to the EU? That's the biggest joke today. Where is the "EU member currency" in 2005?

Hahaha. Now charles liu is citing history here. PRC is only around for 50 years and wonder how many of them RMB is pegged to usa dollar.

Beijing should peg RMB so 828 yuans equal 1 USA dollar.

But now EU is also having problem with chinese textile. Is the whole world having problem with PRC?

Oh yap. Finally charles liu mention dirty bomb and Iraq. He always say this when people criticize the communis in Beijing to deflat people's attention. But since Kelvin Mok comment ur science is atrocious that u worry the bad effect of hydrogen to human bodies, I bet others can ignore ur story on dirty bomb.
One question for ya. If today u dont live in USA but live in Shanghai, and u wanna visit other countries for a trip. Do u like to see chinese RMB appreciate or depreciate?
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On 24 May 2005 23:45:29 -0700, in alt.home.repair RE: Re: Paslode Nail Gun - Being Made in China ! - OT snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Even if it is undervalued, so what? Undervaluing their currency makes their exports cheaper to the U.S. vis-a-vis the US$. Effectively, undervaluation is a way to make their labor subsidize our life style.
The only problems are:
1) Loss of U.S. jobs 2) We become a debtor nation to China and thus must "kow-tow" to their whims. We thus become their economic hostages.
We are trading luxury, ease and consumerism for freedom. We've never had a problem with that before (at least not in the last 75 years).
--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.

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Sometimes the prices do get passed on because of competition. I recall buying a new shirt for $5 about 40 years ago. I can find them at about that price today in the discount stores. Stereo components, cameras, TV, etc are all made cheaply overseas today and prices are far better than 10 years ago. Some is better technology, some is cheaper labor in Korea, then China. As consumers, we are demanding the lower prices. We are demanding higher wages also and since management can't or won't pay it, they take production overseas.
I'm no expert, but I have to wonder what our economy is going to be in 10 or 30 years as we lose manufacturing base but add casinos and the low pay service wages they pay.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

The largest business in the US is a business that doesn't manufacture anything (Wal-Mart). Our country is moving out of the manufacturing and merchantile era into the information age.
I'm sure there were people, just like you, who lamented the rise of cities and manufacturing while the agrarian and feudal society languished. There are parts of the world that haven't even made it to the agricultural phase yet.
We don't need to manufacture our own shirts or mine our own Bauxite to make aluminium - not if we can get these things cheaper elsewhere. Adam Smith settled this hash once and for all in the late 18th century.
People really need to keep up.
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Is that a good thing? Are we all going to work at Wal Mar for $8 and hour with minimal benefits?

We still feed our own country and assist in the feeding of others that have not made it to the agricultural phase. Some never will as they do not have the proper land to grow a decent crop. That does assure our farmers future employment. Gone is the family farm, here is the large coporate farms with much more efficiency. We have not yet, and probably never will, lose the agrarian society unless man evolves so far that he no longer eats food.

But we still have to create wealth of some sort to buy the goods from the people that do make our shirts and mine our bauxite. As we go into the information age, we are farming out some of that work to India. Did you see 60 Minutes last week? We are now farming out some of out major medical procedures also.
In the "information" age you tout, Electric Boat laid off thousands of skilled workers making $12 to $20+ per hour. Casinos opened up and took many of those people and gave them jobs at $8 per hour. People liked them so much they took two :) How will they afford to buy those shirts in the future?
People don't need to keep up, they need to look to the future.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/



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Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ...

That is not true...the family farm is now larger and more mechanized, but it is still just as much the family farm as ever, even if it is organized as an LLC or other form because of the prevailing tax law...
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