# OT: Replacement water heater for home (NSOT??)

Page 6 of 8
• posted on June 6, 2016, 3:33 am

Yoose obviously don't bathe daily. I'm convinced yoose have no idea how much hot water yoose use... most people haven't a clue about their hot water use. There's really no way to compare until one installs a tankless on demand water heater because everyone's hot water usage differs. I already know I save a \$1,000 a year... when still working people have no idea how much hot water they use at work... I know I used a good amount in hot water and actual water. Most use their companie's facilities a lot more than they are willing to admit.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 6, 2016, 12:33 pm
On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 23:33:22 -0400, Brooklyn1

Your numbers are impossible. Heating the water you use costs the same with both tank and tankless. It takes 1 BTU to raise1 lb of water 1 degree F - that is a law that cannot be broken. gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales 8.23 BTU to raise a gallon 1 degree.. With comfortable shower temp of 105, and average inlet temp of 51, you need to raise the temperature by 50 degrees - so 417 BTU per gallon, and a minimum of 3.5 gallons for a shower = 14595 BTU for a short high-efficiency shower.
Most energy efficiency sites estimate standby heat loss for natural gas water heaters in the \$110 per year range - and that is counting ALL of the "lost heat" as a total loss - ie - heater not within conditioned space. With the water heater in my occupied basement my actual "lost heat" is less than half that
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 6, 2016, 1:50 pm
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 8:33:28 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Not necessarily true. The efficiencies while running can be different. I would think that the efficiency of the best tankless is going to be better than the efficiency of the worst tank type. It's just that from what I see, it's not enough difference to make it worthwhile

Only if you make the faulty assumption that 100% of the heat energy of the gas goes into the water.
gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales

My under \$20 total gas bill in summer is consistent with that.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 6, 2016, 1:45 pm
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 11:33:33 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:

You're right. IDK how many gallons of hot water I use. But I do know that my gas bill is under \$20 a month in summer. Others here have reported similar.
There's really no way to compare until one installs a

To compare, I agree. But given that my gas bill is under \$20 a month in summer, when it's just the water heater and some outdoor grilling, I know I can't save \$1000 a year, it's mathematically impossible, because my whole gas bill for the WH is less than \$240.
when still working

So what? It's not necessary to know how much water we use. My less than \$20 gas bill tells me all that I need to know. Pretty dumb point anyway, with a few exceptions, most people use very little hot water at work. For example, I've never taken a shower at work, run my dishwasher or clothes washer there, etc. Just used it to wash my hands, that's it.
It would help if you gave us some actual numbers, like the breakdown on your gas bill, how much per therm you're paying, etc.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 6, 2016, 5:25 pm
cshenk wrote:

Your numbers are nothing like mine. People who still work are not home all day so use little hot water at home. When I worked I'd often shower, shave, and brush my teeth at work plus with my dirty work I'd wash my hands countless times a day... we had very well appointed locker rooms with terriffic high pressure showers and lots of flufy towels. If you're heating your home with gas and have such low bills you must live in the south and/or live in a shoebox with the thermostat set at 60ºF and your price for gas must be dirt cheap, and you must be using natural gas which costs a lot less than propane. You probably shower once a week and it's a navy water hours shower; wet quickly with cold, turn water off, soap up, and a quick cold rinse... you use no more than 1 gallon of water total. In any case the Rinnai web site claims up to a 40% energy saving which I think is conservative. https://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater/ "Designed for efficiency: Rinnais tankless technology features copper heat exchangers to provide maximum efficiency and uses up to 40 percent less energy* than a traditional tank. Save energy: By operating only when hot water is needed, and no storage tank to heat and reheat water, our tankless technology helps save on energy and utility costs. The use of an electronic ignition means no standing pilot light that constantly uses energy. Replace parts, not systems: Every part of a Rinnai Tankless Water Heater is replaceable. Components can be easily exchanged, if needed, versus replacing the entire system." Many people are using tankless on demand because the savings are substantial. My propane company says it's used in all new construction and so many people are changing over they had to hire more people to satisfy demand. When I changed over my tank type water heater was working fine only I tired of large propane bills. I also added the ventless gas heater and run it along with my furnace, it cuts my propane use even further because no heat is lost up a chimney, they are 99% efficient... with the ventless I'm able to turn my furnace on a month later in the fall and turn it off a month sooner in spring, so the ventless turned out to be a great investment... I originally bought it so I'd have heat in case of a power outage in winter, but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set low, by keeping my basement warm it keeps my furnace from firing up as often, and naturally a warm basement heats the entire house too, in winter I leave the basement door open and open a floor vent at the other end of the house. The floor vent was already there because the last people heated with wood, their water jacketed wood stove is still in the basement but no longer hooked up to water or electric circulators for the baseboard heating and it made domestic hot water during winter, in warm weather there was an electric tank water heater, actually two, one was for extra starage from the furnace... they really had the oil fired furnace in case the wood fire went out. It's a very good commercial quality furnace but when the tankless on demand unit was installed I had the plumber remove all the rube goldberg crap, so now it just heats the house in winter but it's turned off during warm weather... when I moved here I had the propane company remove the oil burner and convert the furnace to propane, works very well, and no oil stink or tuneups/cleanings. I would never go back to filthy oil. I've met many of my neighbors who won't use their AC because it would eat into their restaurant and wine budget... they'd rather sleep in their basement during summer than give up eating out 3-4 times a week and guzzle \$40 bottles of wine. People who rationalize all kinds of harebrained excuses to convince themselves not to replace their kaput tank type water heater with a tankless on demand water heater are really just crying the sour grapes opera... has not a whit to do with their budget, it simply hasn't more priority than dining out, guzzling pricey wine, or some such ostentatious spectacle they can flaunt. Maybe I can flaunt my Rinnai by finding some buxom 18 year old gal to shower with. hehe
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 6, 2016, 5:54 pm
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 1:25:45 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Just because you're home, you use significant hot water all day long? My house there is high usage AM, then usage at night again. Usage during the day of any significance would typically be clothes washing, dishwashing, etc, ie usage that's going to occur anyway, whether its day or night. I don't think most people take extra showers just because they are home during the day.

Hard to imagine hand washing can use much hot water.
. we had very well appointed

d

That would be the first time a manufacturer used conservative numbers when trying to sell something. Assuming that 40% is true, my bill is under \$20. So, I'd save \$8 a month. What's the payback time?
Here's what Consumer Reports says:
"Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy eff icient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of around \$70 to \$80 per year, based on 2008 nat ional energy costs."
Note the savings of \$70 to \$80 per year, not per month. That number makes sense to me.
How about this, where an actual study of homes using both was made:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-tankless-water-h eaters-waste-money
"The researchers concluded that most tankless water heaters will fall apart from old age before they save enough energy to justify their high cost"
They found that best case the payback for a tankless was 21 years, worst case it was 71 years.

opper

Per the above math, it's not going to happen when my tank type is \$20 a month.
My propane company says it's used in all new

For the first time you've used the word PROPANE. The OP clearly stated that hers was natural gas. Which gets back to my request for more information. You just say you're saving \$80 a month, nothing else. Now we find out you have propane, she has natural gas. Might want to re-think the comment that it's a no brainer to switch to tankless.
When I changed over my tank type water

Not sure that you're saving much by burning gas in one appliance instead of another. If you can use the ventless to only heat part of the house, I can see that saving money.
but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set

Not sure what's going on there, but if you're saying you heat an unused basement to warm the upstairs, I think that's a losing proposition for sure.
in

My bill is \$20 a month with a tank type. Do the math. And supply us with some real numbers, eg what your gas usage is, what the cost per therm is, what that tankless cost to install.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 7, 2016, 12:26 am
Brooklyn1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:

Cute Sheldon and I have natural gas, live in Virginia Beach (much warmer than you) and use ancillary wood in winter. House kept to 72 in winter.
My prices are flat out less than yours so deal with it. You chose to live where you do and it's prices as well as propane vs natural gas.
You are well known for exxagurration.. (did I spread that out enough?)
Carol
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 8:45 pm
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:01:16 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:

I don't believe it. Not for a residential water heater for a typical family in most of the USA where nat gas is relatively cheap. My gas bill in winter is ~\$100 a month, for a 3200 sq ft house. That includes gas heat and hot water. In the summer, the gas bill is under \$20. So, I'm having a hard time imagining how a bill could got down by \$80, unless you're running a Laundromat.
Don't be a penny-wise

Yeah, what a drain. Like I said, the bill here is under \$20 a month for hot water used as well as the standby losses. So, those standby losses, which are the main difference between a tank type and tankless, can't be that great.
Now look at the cost difference of just replacing that tank heater she has, versus installing a tankless. She's going to get quotes, just for education, I suggest she get quotes for tankless too. Besides the substantially higher cost of the unit, it typically requires new gas piping all the way back to the meter, because of it's high usage. Then you need to run venting to the outside too. Can it make sense? Sure if you have unique requirements, eg you can have very high water needs for a beach house or similar. Does it make sense for the average homeowner? I doubt it.
PS: Weren't you the person who told us gas water heaters can't work without AC? Tell that to mine.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 4, 2016, 8:32 pm
On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 10:53:17 -0400, Brooklyn1

I'm not crazy about where that power point is located (below the plumbing). Not a big deal, but still... Units like yours are excellent for quick, cheap hot water.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 1:41 am

Would not pass inspection here in Waterloo Ontario. Not even if it was a GFCI (required within 6 feet of water. Many places would not allow that crappy stainless steel flex gas line either. - and if they did it would HAVE to be yellow-jacket.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 1:59 am
On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 21:41:12 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

After posting I also noticed the mains power cable isn't in conduit, that definitely would not pass here in Australia. Probably same for the gas lines too, as you mentioned. But I've seen much worse examples around these parts.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 4, 2016, 11:15 pm
On 6/4/2016 9:53 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Thanks, Sheldon. Yeah, it's a no brainer if there's a no-limit budget! Of course I'd love to have an on-demand, tankless hot water system, but my wallet dictates otherwise! Oh well, perhaps I might win the lottery tonight - vbg :)
Sky
===============================Kitchen Rule #1 - Use the timer! Kitchen Rule #2 - Cook's choice! ===============================
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 4, 2016, 11:49 pm
On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 7:15:01 PM UTC-4, Sky wrote:

ny hot water in a power failure.
the standard old tanks tend to be long lived dependable and require routine service
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 12:11 am
On 6/4/2016 6:49 PM, bob haller wrote:

That they do, as evidenced by my ancient, 30-plus year-old hot water heater since it lasted so long before it recently failed. As already mentioned, I've anticipated its incipient failure, so it's no surprise. However, I am caught rather unawares - oh well ;> Such is Life, eh!
I am a firm believer that forearmed with knowledge is a good thing! I'd rather not be taken advantage because some 'sales' person believes I'm an easy mark due to gender!
Sky
===============================Kitchen Rule #1 - Use the timer! Kitchen Rule #2 - Cook's choice! ===============================
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 1:16 am
On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 10:53:17 -0400, Brooklyn1

The tankless MAY require upgrading his gas supply. Thery use about 10 times as much gas flow.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 7:18 am
wrote:

I can't speak for him but our bills went right down when we got rid of the tank.
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 6:09 pm
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:19:14 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:

How much did they go down? You sure it's apples to apples? If you have gas heat, put it in in February, the gas bill will go right down to. IDK what the cost of gas is over there, but here in the USA it's fairly cheap. My whole gas bill in summer is under \$20 a month. So, it's hard for me to see where all this savings is coming from.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 7:08 pm
wrote:

I DIDN'T SAY MORE GAS. It uses about the same amount of gas, but all at once more BTUs for a shorter time- so higher flow. If the tank is inside the house (in conditioned space) the meat loss is minimal - and in the winter just reduces the load on the heating system.
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 8:15 pm
On 06/05/2016 02:08 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
[snip]

Meat loss?
That reminds me of the guy at the propane company who accidentally answered the phone with "taste the heat, not the meat" :-)
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<%-name%>
• posted on June 5, 2016, 10:07 pm
On 6/5/2016 4:15 PM, hah wrote:

One friend of mine relates how when he was working at a religious radio station, a youthful DJ put on a song from the Singing Telestials. My friend the broadcast engineer nearly died laughing when the DJ announced to the world he was about to play the Singing Testicles.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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