OT, but you guys might know about shotguns.

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On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:35:59 -0500, Bob G.

So you think the man was a target, huh? Very interesting.

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On 2006-02-15 09:01:16 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net said:

Well, I think you're using the word "roughly" rather ROUGHLY.
A "BB" measures about 0.18" diameter.
#8 shot, which is commonly used for quail hunting, measures 0.09" diameter.
I sometimes use #7-1/2 on quail (which I hunt quite a lot) but even that measures only 0.095" diameter.
I've never heard of anyone using anything larger on quail.
So the shot Cheney was probably using was about HALF the diameter of "BB" shot.
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snipped-for-privacy@bigfoot.com says...

Well, strictly speaking, BB is one specific size of shot. Here is a complete chart:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIE1a.html
But as others have posted, BB is kind of a generic term for shot.
Dennis
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:11:50 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@SPAMwowway.com (DT) wrote:

To comment on my own sentence: Of course that doesn't mean exactly 5.

Thanks. Very interesting. It seems the small size of buck shot is only 6.1 mm. Not that much bigger.
There seem to be nine sizes smaller than BB. Is some of it actually called "2 shot" or "9 shot", or are those subdivisions of BB, like BB 2 or BB 9?

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It is called just like the chart lists. "I'm usin' number 6", Buck shot sizes are much different than the same number regular shot, so people use the term "ought", as in, "Yah shoulda used double-ought buck".
Dennis
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by Bob Marley
I shot the elderly, but I tried to shoot the quale covey. I shot the elderly, but I tried to shoot the quale covey.
All around in my beltway town They're trying to track me down. They say they want to bring me in guilty For the killing quale by an elderly, For the shot of an elderly. But I say:
I shot the elderly, but I swear it was a before dinner drink. I shot the elderly, and it combined with my heart drug i think.
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yes.
no.
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wrote:

This is what I've read in two newspaper articles and on the net.
There were 3 hunters plus the land owner, who was not hunting, in the hunting party. (Plus, I assume, numerous Secret Service agents and the ambulance attendants that were said to be standing by due to Cheney's health problems.)
According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.
A preliminary sheriff's report stated that neither drugs nor alcohol were a factor. All of the hunters were wearing orange vests. The distance from Cheney to Whittington was 30 yards. Cheney had a non-resident Texas hunting license but did not have the Upland Game Bird Stamp. He was issued a citation and bought the $7.00 stamp.
I've been peppered with birdshot before. It stings but only once did it penetrate the skin. And I realize the skin of a 78 year old is much thinner. I set out to find some information on shotgun ballistics.
Remember that with birdshot, smaller pellets have higher numbers. Number 6 shot is twice the weight of number 8 shot. Typical shot sizes for quail are 7 1/2, 8 and 9. I picked number 8 for my research because it is the middle size.
Most of the info came from gunshot forensic sites.
Number 6 was the smallest size pellet listed. An individual pellet has a muzzle energy of 3 ft/lbs. It will penetrate ballistic gelatin (equivalent to human flesh) 4 to 6 inches at a range of 5 yards. Since a number 8 is half the weight of number 6, it would have 1.5 ft/lbs of energy.
What I could not find was the velocity at 30 yards. The muzzle velocity is about 1200 ft/sec. The drag coefficient of a sphere at this speed is about 1.27. Maybe someone can calculate the downrange speed and therefore the remaining energy at 30 yards.
I did find some state wildlife statistics that said only 42% of birds would be hit and only 10% of birds HIT at that range would die.
Depending on the choke of Cheney's gun, up to 187 pellets could be expected to hit in a 30 inch circle at 30 yards. That jives with the doctor's estimate of 200 hitting Whittington. Probably less because no man can cover a 30 inch circle with his body.
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Neither quail nor pheasant fly "straight up" when flushed. They go off at an angle that rarely exceeds 45 degrees. Usually they hug the ground-- rarely getting higher than 10-15 feet. You may be confusing these birds with dove which fly high in the air.
Edw.
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I'll have to take issue with that last statement. I saw a guy at the grocery store just this afternoon that could *easily* cover a 30-inch circle with his body, maybe 36. Yukkkkkk!
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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They are way off. In my youth [may moons ago] I did a lot of shotgun hunting. For quail they would have been using at the largest 7 1/2 shot and more likely 8 shot which both are very tiny [much smaller than a BB - 2.41mm for 7 1/2 shot] and lose velocity and energy quickly with probably open cylinder choke for wide spread pattern. Such small shot probably would not even be lethal to the bird after about 25 yards. I also understand he was using a 28 GA shotgun. The report I heard was that the pellets broke his skin. Now this all is not a good thing but shotgun hunting is totally different than rifle hunting [or shotgun with deer slug] where you must be sure where your shot will stop. But you would think he ran his car into water and drowned his hunting partner and did nothing to help the way the press is handing it. --- Steve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotshell --- shot sizes

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wrote:

(.095" dia). Typically that will be 3/4 oz. At 345 pellets per oz that means about 259 shot were fired.
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:50:01 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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I should have read this post before I made my comment. on the number of ("BB's) This sounds much mor ein line with what I was thinking .. Personally I can not imagine 200 ("BB's) hitting inside a normal Pattern Circle at 30 yards
Oh well... Bob G.
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You know how freely the press uses zeros.
Last time I stepped off 35 paces (big steps, not yards) to test my 12ga. 28" modified barrel, I got 35 pellets in a 16" circle. And that was with #9 shot, what I use for quail. So, there were more individual shot than in a 7 1/2 shot load. Even if I had expanded that out to a 30" circle, I doubt it would have gone over 100 holes. And in the 16" circle, there were about ten to twelve in the area that would have actually hit a quail.
The drawing I saw of the old bird's injuries showed a very concentrated pattern in his upper chest, neck and jaw. This indicates to me that he was much closer than what they say.
The shot pattern on the victim is what will establish the distance from the barrel. No adjusting those constants. I'm amazed that all these "journalists" haven't applied these facts and come up with the distance "theory" yet. Well, I forgot. "Journalists" aren't always interested in things factual, are they?
Where is CSI when you need them? Oh, not to worry. I bet a dollar that they will have a story with this as an outline by the end of the season. I bet they are filming it as we speak.
Steve
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On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:00:19 -0800, "Steve B"

Actually, I saw an interview, the first day where they were standing outside, with a doctor in which, to the best of my ears' capability, the doctor said something about being hit with between 6 and 200 pellets. The press didn't make up "200". I know he said 200, but I couldn't figure out why, if they had the guy in front of them, they couldn't figure out if it was more like 6 or more like 200.
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For someone who deals in facts, 6 and 200 are about as far apart as Kansas and Afghanistan.
Steve
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There is alt.guns, and there has been some discussion about this on there. Not trying to chase you away from this NG, but there are some real knowledgable people on there (along with the usual a$$holes found on all newsgroups).
wrote:

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Shot size runs from IIRC, 00 to #9, with #9 being the smallest. 00 is about as big as a pencil eraser is round.
The size of the animal determines the size of the shot.
There is a BB shot, which is used for geese. It is the size of, well, BBs, that a BB gun uses.
Standard size for quail would be 7 1/2, 8, or 9 shot.
HTH.
Steve, an old quail hunter
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